[jeffwarne]

Why is this simple feature so underutilized?

What course's greens had the most tilt of any you've played in the last 12 months?
I'm not talking about a 2 percent slope where the greens were running 12+, but rather an actual overall slope to a green that really impacted the direction of a ball's bounce(or not if approached properly), not just the roll.
I'm also not talking about a green that a three yard difference in distance produces a radically different bounce (tier or internal contour)
Which course had the most % of slope as well as the most variety, causing you to attempt to place your tee shots where you could take advantage of the tilt?
Did the course provide the width to do so?
Also, if a tilt away from the player, was there an alternative play to the green?
Describe.

I'll start
Goat Hill, Shelter Island
Tilting right to left #1,3,
left to right 7, 5 (severely, however left 1/4 goes the other way via)
Running away 2,4 (severely) 7
slightly into 9 , back portion of 3
flattish 6

ground is firm and running away in front on 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 (left), 7, 8 so local knowledge is key in placement of drive and play of second shot.
Greens run at 6i-7ish so tilt is playable, but so much tilt that downhill putts are lightning , sidehill putts frightening, and uphillers well.....

Of course tilt is rarely utilized in new design because green speeds have gone up so much......more's the pity that such an important strategic feature is lost(either not designed or removed in some cases) at higher green speeds.

Monorable mention Streamsong,but there were quite few internal contours.
There was plenty of width to approach from proper angles though

[David_Elvins]

Garden City does a great job of mixing some very tilty greens with some nicely undulating ones.  10 and 15 the highlights for me.  

The front right to back left tilt of the 10th green is visible in this photo from Ran's profile



Royal Melbourne has some great internal undulations in the greens but I think it is the overall tilt of many of the greens that are the key to the course's greatness.  1,2,3,4,5,6,9,11,14,15, and 17, all have a predominant tilt that dominates the strategy of the hole.  Interestingly, the lack of tilt in the 10th green is a great feature that dominates that hole's strategy. 

[Sean_A]

Jeff

I too like sloping greens and other than back to front slope I think it is an underutilized feature of design.  I just played Huntercombe yet again (can't get enough) last week and really enjoyed, as I always do, the many tilted greens.  The course starts off with three tilters in a row following the lay of the land.  On each successive hole the slope becomes more pronounced ending with all-world 3rd which is more slopey than Merion's 5th.


The 4th too is a bit tilted, but it plays second fiddle to the outrageous two-tier design.


Things cool off 5-7 (though 6 slopes gently away from play) then 8 jumps up with a crazy two tier green and the back tier slopes away.  The sloping becomes more pronounced on #s 10 and 12 with fronting bunkers to control direction and ball flight.  Both fairways work seamlessly into the greens making the slope hard to recognize.  Below is the 12th.


13 turns the tables a bit with a shallow green sloping gently left to right.  #15 is an unusual hole at Huntercombe because the slope is back to front!  16 has sloping front of the green.  Then things cool off again coming home with 17th featuring another two tier green.

I always think of Park Jr as the king of sloping greens.

Ciao

[John Shimp]

Jeff

Palmetto does a fair amt w this
2 tilts right and runs much harder that way than it looks
4 left
5 left
6 severely right
11 right side severely tilts left
15 tilts left
17 right but maybe more back right
18 right much more so than it appears

Grain feeds into some of this effect but its mostly green angle. 

[Charlie Gallagher]

I will join the tilt discussion by pointing out that Boston Golf Club has a number of greens that employ tilt to create strategy and challenge. Ones that come to mind include 2, sharp tilt left; 3,  tilt right; 10, tilt right; 11, back to front; 12, saddle tilts each side towards the middle; 14, tilt front to back, 18, tilt right to left. These angled surfaces can be used as backstops from certain angles of approach and can also be employed to diirect the ball to another adjacent area on the green. 

Two examples: After playing the 2nd  hole a number of times one realizes that if the hole location is right of center (can be seen from the tee) a drive down the left side of the fairway creates a good angle for the approach. This also eliminates "Mount Rushmore" a rock ledge right from blocking the approach. There is lots of room left for the tee shot, even though it is obscured by one bunker short, one long. 14, the other example I will employ, has a green sloping directly away from the approach. The hole plays much more easily with the hole location in the middle of the green or the back. Cut the hole towards the front and getting it close takes enormous precision.

[Tom Culley]

7th green looking from back to front at my home course.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

It's underutilized in modern design because anything over 2% gives superintendents heartburn.  They won't be able to get the greens up to 12, and they will be looked down upon by everybody else.

[John Mayhugh]

What I like most about tilt on greens it the way that it integrates the course with the land.  I think Fowler was particularly good at this.

Front to back tilt may be the most underutilized green feature in modern courses. 

Nice topic and photo examples.  Tom, is that green as steep from front to back as it looks in the photo?

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff:

It's underutilized in modern design because anything over 2% gives superintendents heartburn.  They won't be able to get the greens up to 12, and they will be looked down upon by everybody else.

Tom, what and where is the steepest slope on one of your original designs?

[Bill_McBride]

What I like most about tilt on greens it the way that it integrates the course with the land.  I think Fowler was particularly good at this.

Front to back tilt may be the most underutilized green feature in modern courses. 

Nice topic and photo examples.  Tom, is that green as steep from front to back as it looks in the photo?

John, that's why the Crenshaw Cliffside course at Barton Creek in Austin is one of my favorites. At least eight of the greens there slope from front to back, and few are built up.  Makes it a fun course with different shot requirements.

[Chris DeNigris]

I like tilt on occasion but I think it may create discomfort for a lot of golfers. And maybe for some designers in their mind's eye. To me there's something very asymmetrical (not necessarily bad) and unbalanced about considerable tilt. The sort of feeling of helplessness as the ball continues to veer where I often don't want it to go. Hard to properly describe and maybe it's just me.  I get a similar feeling with severely tilted fairways...even if I can appreciate the architectural reasons for the tilt.

Again maybe a balance thing but I find some tilted greens more appealing when the approach section of the hole is somewhat tilted in the opposite direction...

[David Whitmer]

I can't look at a green (or even play a green) and guesstimate on the percentage of slope, so I have no idea if what I will bring up is greater than 2% or even considered a highly-sloping green or not.

I really enjoyed the slope Pete Dye used on hole #7 at The Golf Club. It's a reachable par 5, but the green follows the land by sloping hard right-to-left. I was just off the green to the right in two, and could not keep my chip on the green! If one lays up and has a short iron approach, it gets your attention because you absolutely know you can't miss right and expect to get up-and-down. I thought it was a great way to get players to think their way around the hole.

[Tom Kelly]

Again maybe a balance thing but I find some tilted greens more appealing when the approach section of the hole is somewhat tilted in the opposite direction...

My favourite 'tilted' green is one that is in fact perfectly flat, but looks tilted because of the slope of the ground around it. I have seen many golfers completely perplexed when their ball rolls straight as a die across what appears to be a pretty severe slope.

[Jason Topp]

I believe tilt creates the most interesting putting surfaces, particularly when spiced up with enough interesting internal contour.  The Redan and Eden Holes are templates primarily due to the interest created by tilt.

The strength of my prior course, Oak Ridge comes about because of the tilt of many of its greens, usually towards one of the front corners and often with a spine or two to spice things up.  The tilt of the greens there do not have a huge impact on tee shot placement but create significant interest with approach play.  If you try to hit it next to the pin and miss on the high side, you have to work very hard to two putt.  Thus, I frequently cheat 10 feet or so to the low side of the hole because missing the green below the hole is often preferable to being on the wrong side of the green.  The temptation to be more agressive is present on every one of those shots and the best answer depends on how good you are.

On the Green Committee I fought to keep speeds at approximately 10 feet or less because speeds faster than that would lead to calls for levelling out some of the more severe slopes.  

Some other Minneapolis courses have significant tilt to their greens - Golden Valley is a primary example.  When those greens are rolled and double cut they are almost impossible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

David beat me to it.

GCGC has slope on almost every green, to the degree that it's beguiling.

Tough to get close on recoveries and challenging to judge break and speed on putting.

I think Tom has a valid point in that the quest for speed negates the interest in creating more slope and contours and that's unfortunate.

I may be mistaken, but, there seems to be more than adequate slope at Sebonack.
I can't wait to see how the course is set up and at what speed the greens are prepared.

[Tom Culley]

What I like most about tilt on greens it the way that it integrates the course with the land.  I think Fowler was particularly good at this.

Front to back tilt may be the most underutilized green feature in modern courses. 

Nice topic and photo examples.  Tom, is that green as steep from front to back as it looks in the photo?

John,

I actually think that that photo plays down the tilt slightly, but it gives you an idea. That green is actually on a tilt from top right to bottom left and can be very difficult to putt on!

[jeffwarne]

Some excellent responses.

Sean,
I knew you'd come through.
Knowing how difficult it is to capture slope in photos, there must be tremendous slope in those greens at Huntercombe.

Tom,
You definitely nailed it, and more's the pity.
I know I continue to "tilt" at windmills, but it's amazing to me golfers (who drive superintendants) can't see that slower, slopier greens produce a much wider range of speeds, making a downhill putt waaaaay different than an uphill put on a severly tilted green with a speed that tolerates it. (to say nothing of the fact it's easier to keep firm with less risk of turf loss)

Do you as an architect use internal contours in both directions to slow the ball down so a green can still have some tilt? (as well as create interest?)
I particularly enjoyed #6 at SS Blue's green.
I love a green with a consistent overall tilt .
at 2% though it's certainly hard to pick up from the fairway, and isn't ging to have a massive effect of the first bounce, like a 3-5% tilt might at a slower firmer speed, once again rewarding the player who spins it more due to higher clubhead speed .

John S,
yes Palmetto has some tilt, exaggerated by the firmness and speed of the greens. 1,2, front of 3, 5,6,9 on the front nine come to mind.
12 is very tilted and 15 and 17 run away creating their own unique challenges, even with a wedge.

Sadly though Palmetto's green's were designed in 1930ish by Alistair MacKenzie.
#5 has already come under the knife due to green speed, and tiers have been resorted to,
Given the speeds there, it was the only choice, but that green was fantastic before at slower speeds.
(I can still remember a cut 3 iron I hit into right pin there when I was about 16 that held up on that front right for a tap in birdie-at today's speeds, not sure that could be done)
The no overseeding was the death knell as you know the winter greens there are spicy.

I was looking for modern examples and Tom pretty much summed it up.
I guess when I think of interesting greens, I think less of internal contours and tiers, and more overall slope, but I guess current green speeds make that all but impossible.
I do understand putts, pitches and chips are affected by high speed, lower tilt, but it's a shame this feature, along with width, has been diminished by modern agronomy.

Chris,
Of course tilt makes the golfer uncomfortable but can be the integral part of the strategy hole for the golfer paying attention.
Certainly a better way than a pond ,OB, or Native grass.

John M,
Bingo. I love a green which is laid right on the land, and occasionally that land runs away from the player, yet that feature is rarely used.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

It's underutilized in modern design because anything over 2% gives superintendents heartburn.  They won't be able to get the greens up to 12, and they will be looked down upon by everybody else.

Tom, what and where is the steepest slope on one of your original designs?

Bill:

When I worked for Pete Dye, he told me that before he built Crooked Stick, he had surveyed all of the greens at Broadmoor CC in Indy (a Ross course) and used those slopes as his guideline for undulation in greens.  The slopes in the hole locations at Broadmoor were everything up to 4.5%.  Ironically, just before I left to go on my own, I stopped through Crooked Stick as they were rebuilding the greens in 1985, and Pete was changing every green to reduce the maximum slope to 3% to deal with their quest for daily championship-level green speeds.

When I started High Pointe, I checked the greens at Crystal Downs, and guess what?  4.5% slopes on many of them.  That's what we used as our maximum at High Pointe, although I was sure to have at least a couple of hole locations at 2.5% or under, remembering what Pete had been doing at Crooked Stick.  But I didn't envision in 1987-88 that anybody except Oakmont would be trying for green speeds of 11 on an everyday basis.

After building the greens at Lost Dunes, and seeing how fast they maintain them on an everyday basis, I reduced the maximum slope in hole location areas to 3% on our newer courses.  That's the max at Pacific Dunes, Sebonack, Rock Creek, Stone Eagle, Ballyneal, and our many other courses.  Every one of those courses has places on the green that exceed 3%, but when we do that, there are usually counter-slopes (as jeffwarne just asked about) to give players a chance to putt downhill without firing right off the green.

But, if I was just going to build a green with straight tilt to it -- like the fifth at Merion, a hole I love -- I'd have to go a bit under 3% to allow for what green speeds may be in another ten years.  And Jeff is right, we've lost out on a lot of interesting design features because of that.

NOTE:  At 3%, I'm still the outlier among modern architects.  The Tour insists that you can't have more than 2.25% slope around a hole location ... I think that's written in anticipation of green speeds at 13 or higher [and a bunch of Tour players in the field who would be apoplectic if a tough hole location cost them a big check], and most architects have accepted the Tour's number as gospel.

NOTE:  The fifth green at Merion is also 4.5% or even 5% from right to left.  I can't wait to see how it plays in June ... it's the only one of the severe greens at Merion they didn't change, probably because they couldn't figure out how to change it and tie it in.  I imagine they will keep it a bit slower than the others.  Lots of courses that host major championships still have hole locations at 3% and 4% ... you can still play them at 4%, they're just very difficult.

[Eric Smith]

NOTE:  The fifth green at Merion is also 4.5% or even 5% from right to left.  I can't wait to see how it plays in June ... it's the only one of the severe greens at Merion they didn't change, probably because they couldn't figure out how to change it and tie it in.  I imagine they will keep it a bit slower than the others.

I think we're going to see a number of guys standing there, hands on hips, just shaking their heads. I can't wait!

[jeffwarne]

NOTE:  The fifth green at Merion is also 4.5% or even 5% from right to left.  I can't wait to see how it plays in June ... it's the only one of the severe greens at Merion they didn't change, probably because they couldn't figure out how to change it and tie it in.  I imagine they will keep it a bit slower than the others.

I think we're going to see a number of guys standing there, hands on hips, just shaking their heads. I can't wait!

Not knowing Merion, is there any way that the player can drive to a preferred area left to minimize the effect of the tilt?
Was there ever?

[Eric Smith]

Not knowing Merion, is there any way that the player can drive to a preferred area left to minimize the effect of the tilt?
Was there ever?

I thought I read somewhere on here that they are shaving the bank of the creek all the way down the left hand side (?) so I'm guessing playing to the left off the tee will be an even riskier proposition. Of course, those guys are good, so I wouldn't dream of comparing what my hook spinning 7 iron did from over there to what they'll do with their approach shots. I know I saw all of that green from high side to low side to almost creek side!

[jeffwarne]

Not knowing Merion, is there any way that the player can drive to a preferred area left to minimize the effect of the tilt?
Was there ever?

I thought I read somewhere on here that they are shaving the bank of the creek all the way down the left hand side (?) so I'm guessing playing to the left off the tee will be an even riskier proposition. Of course, those guys are good, so I wouldn't dream of comparing what my hook spinning 7 iron did from over there to what they'll do with their approach shots. I know I saw all of that green from high side to low side to almost creek side!

Am I the only one who thinks the USGA has gone overboard with their shaved areas?
Sure there was an overemphasis on rough years ago, but it seems they've overembraced a fad.
Playing out of the rough greenside is a skill that is discounted by that don't have the skill

[Eric Smith]

Jeff, take a look at this video of the super walking us through the preparations for the US Open at 5 fairway:

http://youtu.be/XWiApvqqAS0?t=14m39s

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, take a look at this video of the super walking us through the preparations for the US Open at 5 fairway:

http://youtu.be/XWiApvqqAS0?t=14m39s

Thanks Eric,
#2 looks absolutely awful.
Nothing like removing the relevance of the left bunker and forcing the player to play to the better angle on the right, already defended by OB. The plan they had for the members was good, they should've left it.

With the fairways as fast as they'll be for the Open, it seems on #5 that the penalty of the creek (with the soon to be shaved bank) will encourage players to just try to get it anywhere in the fairway. Would've been nice to have seen them attempt to challenge the left side for a preferred angle but the slope,shaved turf, and creek will just conspire them to forego strategy and just try to hold anywhere in the fairway.

Some of those tees on the back look like the reverse jans national

Here's a thought.
Give out a golf ball on Monday that goes 10% shoter and play the golf course.
But then, how would the entire setup crew justify their existence?

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff:

It's underutilized in modern design because anything over 2% gives superintendents heartburn.  They won't be able to get the greens up to 12, and they will be looked down upon by everybody else.

Tom, what and where is the steepest slope on one of your original designs?

Bill:

When I worked for Pete Dye, he told me that before he built Crooked Stick, he had surveyed all of the greens at Broadmoor CC in Indy (a Ross course) and used those slopes as his guideline for undulation in greens.  The slopes in the hole locations at Broadmoor were everything up to 4.5%.  Ironically, just before I left to go on my own, I stopped through Crooked Stick as they were rebuilding the greens in 1985, and Pete was changing every green to reduce the maximum slope to 3% to deal with their quest for daily championship-level green speeds.

When I started High Pointe, I checked the greens at Crystal Downs, and guess what?  4.5% slopes on many of them.  That's what we used as our maximum at High Pointe, although I was sure to have at least a couple of hole locations at 2.5% or under, remembering what Pete had been doing at Crooked Stick.  But I didn't envision in 1987-88 that anybody except Oakmont would be trying for green speeds of 11 on an everyday basis.

After building the greens at Lost Dunes, and seeing how fast they maintain them on an everyday basis, I reduced the maximum slope in hole location areas to 3% on our newer courses.  That's the max at Pacific Dunes, Sebonack, Rock Creek, Stone Eagle, Ballyneal, and our many other courses.  Every one of those courses has places on the green that exceed 3%, but when we do that, there are usually counter-slopes (as jeffwarne just asked about) to give players a chance to putt downhill without firing right off the green.

But, if I was just going to build a green with straight tilt to it -- like the fifth at Merion, a hole I love -- I'd have to go a bit under 3% to allow for what green speeds may be in another ten years.  And Jeff is right, we've lost out on a lot of interesting design features because of that.

NOTE:  At 3%, I'm still the outlier among modern architects.  The Tour insists that you can't have more than 2.25% slope around a hole location ... I think that's written in anticipation of green speeds at 13 or higher [and a bunch of Tour players in the field who would be apoplectic if a tough hole location cost them a big check], and most architects have accepted the Tour's number as gospel.

NOTE:  The fifth green at Merion is also 4.5% or even 5% from right to left.  I can't wait to see how it plays in June ... it's the only one of the severe greens at Merion they didn't change, probably because they couldn't figure out how to change it and tie it in.  I imagine they will keep it a bit slower than the others.  Lots of courses that host major championships still have hole locations at 3% and 4% ... you can still play them at 4%, they're just very difficult.

Thank you for taking time to write that.  It will be interesting to watch the pros deal with Merion #5 in June.

It's great that Crystal Downs was your exemplar, with tempering by Pete Dye.  Greens like 1, 10, 11 and 17 are a lot more fun at 9 stimp than much higher speed.    Your more recent greens like 7 and 12 at Ballyneal and 13 at Old Mac demonstrate those counter slopes you mention.  There's nothing much more fun than putting away from the hole to get close.

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