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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 07:04:56 PM »
The nature of most amateur golfers that I have been around for 35 years has been to be as good as they can be.  New Equipment and advances in technology has helped players improve some. 

Prove it! It may rescue a score here an there, but it is not making players better.

I would say that moving from the Wooden “woods” and metal was the largest step in improving people’s golf games,

Their games didn't get better, their scores might have slightly, but no one can prove they did.

followed closely by vast improvements of the golf ball.   The ability to play with what once was a distance ball and still maintains the ability to hold greens and spin the ball, if even by accident is huge. 

Again, their games are no better, their score might be ever so slightly.

Lastly, the invention of the utility iron has really increased the middle digits handicapper 10-18 ability to get the ball in the air from 165-200 yards. 

IMO a softer shaft would have done the same thing. But, ego is ego, and real men want stiff shafts.

ALL of these advancements are far more helpful to the average players score than anchoring the putter.

Far more? Give me a break!
 
I think people need to ask themselves, what does the USGA do for the 28 million golfers in the United States?  They provide a handicap system that is easily duplicated and they provide the rules which most everyone fails to abide by each and every time they play golf. 

The provide assistance in agronomy, drainage, etc. so that players can better enjoy their courses. Open your mind and think about it a little more before constructing such lackluster criticisms. Courses don't just rate themselves.

What does the PGA of America provide?  They provide a readily available liaison to many aspects of the golf game; rules, instruction, equipment and etiquette.  They are the link between everything the USGA writes down in their books and pamphlets and the actual golfers.

Don't need them anymore, I've got the internet. ;D

What does the PGA Tour provide?  They provide the heroes that inspire people to play golf. 

I'm sorry, but golf was way popular before there even was a PGA Tour.

They show all golfers how to play the game at its best.  They are walking endorsements for club companies. 

BARF!

They are golf role models like it or not.  They also give a lot of $$$ back to the communities that they visit. 

That's funny. I thought it was all the wannabees that fork over megabucks to rub elbows with these "heroes" that provide the $$$ to the communities.

In my opinion,  A rule change not adopted by the PGA Tour and PGA of America would cause a disaster to the USGA.  The former two bodies are the link to average golfer, either at the course or on the Television. 

And we get slow golf, and inappropriate club choices by these "linked" average golfers.

I tend to think that the ANGC will go whichever way the PGA Tour goes on the issue.  They know where they get their $$$ from and that is a partnership with the PGA Tour. 

GJ Bailey's comment about the Tea Party - is IMO, just plain absurd and has no place on this thread.  If you want to have a political debate, start a thread and let's have at it. :)

And you are no Paul Krugman.  :P

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2013, 07:10:52 PM »
David,

Where does the American Croquette Society stand on the issue ? ;D

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2013, 07:48:01 PM »

I think people need to ask themselves, what does the USGA do for the 28 million golfers in the United States?  They provide a handicap system that is easily duplicated and they provide the rules which most everyone fails to abide by each and every time they play golf. 

The provide assistance in agronomy, drainage, etc. so that players can better enjoy their courses. Open your mind and think about it a little more before constructing such lackluster criticisms. Courses don't just rate themselves.


That's ridiculous.  Private industry will provide all of that any course needs without being a USGAmember.

Look....I really don't care what the USGA does.  I think they come across as arrogant in many instances.  14000 clubs don't need to be members and can have everything they would offer thru private industry.  The USGA provides the National Championship and that is on someone else's golf course.  They have decided to acquire sponsors lately such as Rolex, Amex, Lexus and with such have decided they would adjust pairings as needed for TV time etc.  I think they have over $250 million in the bank...not sure.  Do yo uthink for one minute that the 14000 clubs in this country that don't need them really care what they do?  No...they want to run golfers thru and make a profit.  I don't know the salaries of the USGA employees but I do know a guy like J L Barrow of First Tee makes 1 million a year.  And it doesn't work.  All of this has to stop.  I think it's fine for the USGA to make the rules for golf and see that they are enforced by players in their tourneys but don't try to push it on the small club out there that is barely making it.  They are not impressed with elitist sitting in a tower trying to rule them without authority.

And BTW it's not a question of the PGA pros having to adopt the USGA's method in order to play in a US Open.  Trust me all it will take is a few pro's  sponsor contracts telling they can't  and TV advertising and money will go away at the Open.  The USGA knows this.  They have been walking a fine line for a few years now.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2013, 08:58:13 PM »
What happens if the USGA and Rand A become irrelevant. It would be interesting to see who is going to write the new rule book as the one we follow now has a copyright.  You could fit them all on two sheets of paper when the RandA consolidated the rules back in 1897. Every rule and decision since then has been decided by them, and the USGA, and the rules/decisions book today is over 1,000 pages. Maybe we'll end up in the same place golf began, with individual clubs making their own rules.

Who will regulate equipment,  I know, let's let Taylor made do it. After all, they sell the most golf clubs. And damn it, it's time to make that new ball, you know the one, it flies straight as a die and allows your grandmother to hit it 300 yards. Titleist could easily pop them out of the mold by the millions.  

I guess the 28 million to the First Tee can come from someone else, along with the money spent on research, etc., and of course a new system of handicapping could be conceived. That ought to work well because once you take away the USGA and the RandA why should anyone listen to the usurpers? I mean, if we can overthrow the two regimes who've been running and trying to preserve our game for over a century, why should we listen to their successors?

I'm sorry, the Pro golfers who are against the anchoring rule are  overly cossetted, too pampered by their sponsors, and spoiled by their exemptions.  :o

To paraphrase the caddies mandate: Pros should Show up, Shut up, Suck it up, and Learn to Putt Freehand.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 06:19:56 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2013, 09:01:37 PM »
I feel no guilt that my use of an anchored putter is destroying the game for others. It's somewhat empowering knowing that my putting stroke can have such an impact on others.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2013, 09:07:42 PM »
I hope the ban is reversed for the simple reason that I can laugh at those who implied I was cheating the morning after the ban was announced.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2013, 09:13:44 PM »
We don't have course or slope ratings anymore.  Sand Hills never did.    Suppose we will just allow anchoring via Local Rule for tournaments.

-Easy Cheesy- ;)

I don't worry about longer drivers, or balls.  Unless you can hit em where you want, they just go farther into the Sandhills.  You can't fix dispersion.

The game needs to be F.U.N. - for anyone and everyone.  


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2013, 08:36:39 AM »
I hope there's bifurcation on this issue.  Nothing would be better entertainment than watching Keegan Bradley standing over a 3 foot downhill slider to win the Open sans broom.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2013, 08:49:14 AM »
I hope there's bifurcation on this issue.  Nothing would be better entertainment than watching Keegan Bradley standing over a 3 foot downhill slider to win the Open sans broom.

Wouldn't this imply he'd already been as good as it gets for 4 days?  I wouldn't worry too much about that 3 footer.


Ted Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2013, 10:30:45 AM »
I was a USGA Committeeman for 14 years.  I've stated on this website before that I think this stand by the USGA is potentially a huge mistake.  The PGA of America and the PGA Tour can, at anytime they want, choose to make their own rules.  Nothing prevents them from doing this.  Once that is done (if that is done), the USGA and the R&A will take a big hit to their "authority" over the game.  Banning anchoring, after years of letting it go, is a risky move in my opinion.  They should have opposed anchoring a long time ago...just as they should have addressed the golf ball years ago (how hard was that one to figure out????....dial back the golf ball vs. forcing the Merion's and ANGC's of the world to spend millions keeping their courses "relevant"???...talk about the tail wagging the dog!).

I fear (and I predict) that the USGA will be virtually irrelevant ten years from now.

Too little, much too late, and the wrong line to draw in the sand (strike one, strike two, followed by a foul ball...the batter is in a deep hole).

TS

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2013, 10:33:17 AM »
While it appears a tempest in a teapot, if they can't even make this one minor change, then you can kiss their authority over the rules of the game goodbye.  Maybe a good first step to getting rid of the insidious USGA handicap system?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2013, 11:02:27 AM »
I was a USGA Committeeman for 14 years.  I've stated on this website before that I think this stand by the USGA is potentially a huge mistake.  The PGA of America and the PGA Tour can, at anytime they want, choose to make their own rules.  Nothing prevents them from doing this.  Once that is done (if that is done), the USGA and the R&A will take a big hit to their "authority" over the game.  Banning anchoring, after years of letting it go, is a risky move in my opinion.  They should have opposed anchoring a long time ago...just as they should have addressed the golf ball years ago (how hard was that one to figure out????....dial back the golf ball vs. forcing the Merion's and ANGC's of the world to spend millions keeping their courses "relevant"???...talk about the tail wagging the dog!).

I fear (and I predict) that the USGA will be virtually irrelevant ten years from now.

Too little, much too late, and the wrong line to draw in the sand (strike one, strike two, followed by a foul ball...the batter is in a deep hole).

TS

WELL STATED....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2013, 11:20:05 AM »
I'm not saying the USGA is the cause or answer for many of the problems and I'm not saying they should not have picked a fight.  I'm saying I don't see a reason for 14000 of our courses to be a member of the USGA.  That is the problem they need to fix and then things will smooth out IMHO.

Mike

Why are you stopping at the clubs?  Is there much reason for the vast majority of golfers to be a member of the USGA?  The entire concept of membership to that organization is tosh.  I bet most people in the world would puke at the idea of becoming a member of the R&A in the way N American golfers are members of the USGA.  As soon as I realized it was a scam many, many moons ago I dropped the USGA.  Gosh, being a member of GAM just to keep a handicap was bad enough.  Nowadays, loads of golfer just keep a handicap on their own as the vast majority of golfers don't need a recognized handicap.  So, with all those memberships what exactly does the USGA do that the R&A can't do (on their own turf) and is any of it worth paying the salaries of the blue blazers?  

The best organization I belong to is The English Golf Union.  It costs about a tenner and I get a county card for that.  The USGA would do well to think of what sort of personal benefits such as this it can offer for members.  Otherwise, membership for all but the blue bloods and salaried folks really amounts to nothing.  The USGA can do most if not all of what it does without any members.

The one thing I can see getting behind the USGA on is the overhaul of the rules to a far simpler version.  What we have now is a travesty.

Speaking of GAM, I see Doak is being admitted into the Michigan Golf Hall of Fame.  Is this first organization to honour Him in this way?

Ciao
  
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 11:23:59 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2013, 11:21:52 AM »
I was a USGA Committeeman for 14 years.  I've stated on this website before that I think this stand by the USGA is potentially a huge mistake.  The PGA of America and the PGA Tour can, at anytime they want, choose to make their own rules.  Nothing prevents them from doing this.  Once that is done (if that is done), the USGA and the R&A will take a big hit to their "authority" over the game.  Banning anchoring, after years of letting it go, is a risky move in my opinion.  They should have opposed anchoring a long time ago...just as they should have addressed the golf ball years ago (how hard was that one to figure out????....dial back the golf ball vs. forcing the Merion's and ANGC's of the world to spend millions keeping their courses "relevant"???...talk about the tail wagging the dog!).

I fear (and I predict) that the USGA will be virtually irrelevant ten years from now.

Too little, much too late, and the wrong line to draw in the sand (strike one, strike two, followed by a foul ball...the batter is in a deep hole).

TS

+1
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2013, 11:50:00 AM »
Until USGA realize that their job is to protect and promote the game of golf and NOT protecting par, they will continue to wither and become irrelevant.

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2013, 03:56:40 PM »
The nature of most amateur golfers that I have been around for 35 years has been to be as good as they can be.  New Equipment and advances in technology has helped players improve some. 

Prove it! It may rescue a score here an there, but it is not making players better.

Lower scores make you a better golfer ... its the only means to determine if one is better than the other.

I would say that moving from the Wooden “woods” and metal was the largest step in improving people’s golf games,

Their games didn't get better, their scores might have slightly, but no one can prove they did.

scores lower, see above

followed closely by vast improvements of the golf ball.   The ability to play with what once was a distance ball and still maintains the ability to hold greens and spin the ball, if even by accident is huge. 

Again, their games are no better, their score might be ever so slightly.
scores lower = better

Lastly, the invention of the utility iron has really increased the middle digits handicapper 10-18 ability to get the ball in the air from 165-200 yards. 

IMO a softer shaft would have done the same thing. But, ego is ego, and real men want stiff shafts.

most utility clubs dont have stiff shafts, they have regular shafts and are swung by those over 50.  Most people i know over 50 have 2-4 utility clubs in their bags

ALL of these advancements are far more helpful to the average players score than anchoring the putter.

Far more? Give me a break!

yes far more and its not close
 
I think people need to ask themselves, what does the USGA do for the 28 million golfers in the United States?  They provide a handicap system that is easily duplicated and they provide the rules which most everyone fails to abide by each and every time they play golf. 

The provide assistance in agronomy, drainage, etc. so that players can better enjoy their courses. Open your mind and think about it a little more before constructing such lackluster criticisms. Courses don't just rate themselves.

this is laughable, private industry and research at schools make the advancements in agronomy not the USGA.  In fact, most of the recent advancements have come from foreign countries. 

What does the PGA of America provide?  They provide a readily available liaison to many aspects of the golf game; rules, instruction, equipment and etiquette.  They are the link between everything the USGA writes down in their books and pamphlets and the actual golfers.

Don't need them anymore, I've got the internet. ;D

LOL, good luck with that

What does the PGA Tour provide?  They provide the heroes that inspire people to play golf. 

I'm sorry, but golf was way popular before there even was a PGA Tour.

If you are so naive to think that golf wouldn't lose even more people in the US without  the PGA Tour then you are as hopeless as I think

They show all golfers how to play the game at its best.  They are walking endorsements for club companies. 

BARF!

didn't say this was a positive

They are golf role models like it or not.  They also give a lot of $$$ back to the communities that they visit. 

That's funny. I thought it was all the wannabees that fork over megabucks to rub elbows with these "heroes" that provide the $$$ to the communities.

Wow are you naive, almost every single pro golfer has a foundation   http://together.pgatour.com/

In my opinion,  A rule change not adopted by the PGA Tour and PGA of America would cause a disaster to the USGA.  The former two bodies are the link to average golfer, either at the course or on the Television. 

And we get slow golf, and inappropriate club choices by these "linked" average golfers.

No doubt their are many negatives about PGA Tour and common golfer.

I tend to think that the ANGC will go whichever way the PGA Tour goes on the issue.  They know where they get their $$$ from and that is a partnership with the PGA Tour. 

GJ Bailey's comment about the Tea Party - is IMO, just plain absurd and has no place on this thread.  If you want to have a political debate, start a thread and let's have at it. :)

And you are no Paul Krugman.  :P

That is true, and I am pretty happy about it.

Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2013, 06:12:23 PM »
David,

Do you have any scientific study that has shown that the new clubs that are being pushed down golfers throats has improved any of their scores?

Do you have any scientific study that has shown that the new clubs that are being pushed down golfers throats has improved their swings?

Good one about the foundations. I forgot about them. However, that is not a feature unique to golfers, the current sum of whom will never approach what Warren Buffet gives back.

I'm sorry, but shooting better scores (if they even do) does not make one a better golfer. If you take away their "game improvement" clubs, and give them back their old clubs and they still shoot better scores, then you would have an argument. If I put a basket homing device in a basketball (e.g., perhaps magnetized) and start shooting a better field goal percentage, am I a better basketball player than I was before?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2013, 06:22:39 PM »
I was a USGA Committeeman for 14 years.  I've stated on this website before that I think this stand by the USGA is potentially a huge mistake.  The PGA of America and the PGA Tour can, at anytime they want, choose to make their own rules.  Nothing prevents them from doing this.  Once that is done (if that is done), the USGA and the R&A will take a big hit to their "authority" over the game.  Banning anchoring, after years of letting it go, is a risky move in my opinion.  They should have opposed anchoring a long time ago...just as they should have addressed the golf ball years ago (how hard was that one to figure out????....dial back the golf ball vs. forcing the Merion's and ANGC's of the world to spend millions keeping their courses "relevant"???...talk about the tail wagging the dog!).



TS

It's hard to ban something you dismiss as "statistically insignificant" as they did for years with yardage gains.
They definitely picked the wrong battle first
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2013, 10:44:40 PM »
...
Lastly, the invention of the utility iron has really increased the middle digits handicapper 10-18 ability to get the ball in the air from 165-200 yards. 

IMO a softer shaft would have done the same thing. But, ego is ego, and real men want stiff shafts.

most utility clubs dont have stiff shafts, they have regular shafts and are swung by those over 50.  Most people i know over 50 have 2-4 utility clubs in their bags
...

Looks to me like you completely missed the joke. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2013, 11:11:33 PM »
...
I think people need to ask themselves, what does the USGA do for the 28 million golfers in the United States?  They provide a handicap system that is easily duplicated and they provide the rules which most everyone fails to abide by each and every time they play golf.  

The provide assistance in agronomy, drainage, etc. so that players can better enjoy their courses. Open your mind and think about it a little more before constructing such lackluster criticisms. Courses don't just rate themselves.

this is laughable, private industry and research at schools make the advancements in agronomy not the USGA.  In fact, most of the recent advancements have come from foreign countries.  
...

Who said they made the advancements? They assist those that don't study the advancements on their own.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:15:57 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2013, 02:20:00 PM »
David,

Do you have any scientific study that has shown that the new clubs that are being pushed down golfers throats has improved any of their scores?

Do you have any scientific study that has shown that the new clubs that are being pushed down golfers throats has improved their swings?

Good one about the foundations. I forgot about them. However, that is not a feature unique to golfers, the current sum of whom will never approach what Warren Buffet gives back.

I'm sorry, but shooting better scores (if they even do) does not make one a better golfer. If you take away their "game improvement" clubs, and give them back their old clubs and they still shoot better scores, then you would have an argument. If I put a basket homing device in a basketball (e.g., perhaps magnetized) and start shooting a better field goal percentage, am I a better basketball player than I was before?


I'm the other David (fatter, and not quite as good a golfer), but I'll chime in....

I don't think we're looking at improvement in scores the right way. I do think, without question, golfers have gotten "better" due to a longer ball and better, more consistent equipment that allows them to hit higher, longer, and (generally) more accurate shots, but with a couple caveats:

1) Improvement in scores alone is difficult to figure because courses have gotten much, much longer, and much, much tougher. Even if the ball goes farther, that does not make up for the added length. A 7200 yard course (everything else being equal) plays much, much tougher than a 6,000 yard course even if the ball goes 20% farther today. If you don't know why this is, then raise your hand and I'll enlighten you. A hint: it has to do with shot dispersion and the way that distance affects one's ability to hit one's target.  ;D

To put it another way: Is there anyone who doubts that if no new courses had been built since the 1970's that scores would not be lower today, on average, than they were in the 1970's?

2) There has been a marked decrease in scores at the low end of the handicap spectrum. Do I have proof of this? No, but I am virtually certain that it exists if someone was willing to do the research.

Anecdotal examples:

Course records: It is rare today to find a course record that has not been set in the last 5 years.

The course record at my old home club (6,570, par 72, 72.0/132) back in the 80's and 90's was 8-under 64. That score was shot exactly three times in about 30 years from 1967 when the club opened to the mid-90's.

Then, starting in about 1995, when the ball started to explode and large, light, easy to hit drivers hit the market, it was beaten or tied repeatedly. Several times a year someone would shoot 64 (I was one of them, and I'm not that good of a golfer) to where it now stands at 62, which has been shot at least three times that I know of. There have now been too many 63's and 64's to count. I know this is one course, so it's not exactly a "study," but I also know that this story is not even remotely unique. I'd be curious to know of all the golf courses that existed prior to the mid 90's, how many of them have course records set in the last 15 years or so since the ball exploded and larger, light, easy to hit drivers hit the market. I would venture to say that it is 100%.

Everywhere I go I inquire as to course records, and it's rare for the course record to not have been shot by some local mini-tour pro or web.com pro or college or high school player in the very recent past. Rounds of 59 on legitimate, over 6,000 yard golf courses, are no longer anything amazing to hear of. The world of golf went over 100 years with only a handful of rounds of 59 on par 70 or greater golf courses, and now they happen so frequently on minitours and in casual rounds that they rarely raise an eyebrow. Yes there are more golfers now, but these ridiculously low scores have all been bunched since since the ball exploded and drivers got longer, lighter, and more accurate.

2) Number of golfers with +indexes. When I first took up the game, it was rare for any one club to have more than one or two golfers with indexes below zero. I used to keep track of this kind of thing because I was committed to becoming a scratch golfer from the day I first picked up the game. Everywhere I went, I would look at the "index sheet" and invariably there would be a couple players at +0.4, +0.8, and maybe one or two players at +1 or even +1.5.

Today, many, many clubs I go to have multiple players in the + category, and often players with low indexes in the +2 to +4 range, which was extremely rare back in the 1980's.

Now the curious thing about that is that even if indexes on the low end are going down (which I highly suspect and believe could be proven if someone had access to the data and would take the time), that would not, necessarily, correlate with lower average scores, since courses have gotten longer and harder and course ratings have increased correspondingly (especially the course ratings of courses that low-handicap players tend to play).

So, in short:

If scores have stayed the same, but courses have gotten longer and more difficult in the last 30 years (anyone who wants to dispute this with me, please, please bring it on!  ;D ) then that means that golfers have, actually, gotten better, even though their actual scores might not show it.

Much more to say on this topic, but there's probably enough "bait" in this post to bring on the old-timers....  ;D
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 02:21:47 PM by David Ober »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2013, 02:51:12 PM »
Trap drawing David,

I freely admit that the ball change has changed scoring. But if you were to give a player a balata ball would he not score worse, even though he is the same golfer? Does that mean he is or is not a better golfer, because he has a new ball to play?

I disagree that no new courses since 1970 would result in lower average scores. Many new courses since 1970 do not penalize golfers as much. For example, my first experience with a wide playing area course (Rustic Canyon) resulting in a personal best. I.e., we average golfers score our better average scores on such courses. A club outing to a wide course from our narrow course had many of the members mad about how they were being beaten by higher handicappers.

You completely ignore the video camera in your analysis. This may be the biggest fault of your post.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Ober

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Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2013, 03:20:46 PM »
Trap drawing David,

I freely admit that the ball change has changed scoring. But if you were to give a player a balata ball would he not score worse, even though he is the same golfer? Does that mean he is or is not a better golfer, because he has a new ball to play?

I disagree that no new courses since 1970 would result in lower average scores. Many new courses since 1970 do not penalize golfers as much. For example, my first experience with a wide playing area course (Rustic Canyon) resulting in a personal best. I.e., we average golfers score our better average scores on such courses. A club outing to a wide course from our narrow course had many of the members mad about how they were being beaten by higher handicappers.

You completely ignore the video camera in your analysis. This may be the biggest fault of your post.


I would be a better player today with a balata ball than I was in 1989 with a balata ball for two reasons:

1) Longer, lighter drivers with much, much larger sweet spots that would allow me to hit the ball farther and more accurately, on average.

2) Hybrid clubs which completely and totally changed my long game. Ask anyone who played with me back when I first started hitting my original Hogan Apex Hybrids back in the 90's, and they can tell you that my 180 - 210 yard shots went from being a liability to an asset. For me, personally, I credit the hybrid with taking my game from 0 - 1 index territory to +2 to +3 territory.

But here's a caveat (I'm big with the caveats): Hybrids helped me tremendously, while others see little or not improvement from them. They helped me because of my swing type: I'm a "trapper" of the ball and I'm also very steep at impact, which means that I de-loft the clubhead significantly at impact (moreso than the average plus-handicapper). The added loft and wider, thicker sole of the hybrid was ideal for me, and where I used to be able to hit a 4-iron relatively well, it would be a scalded, low burner of a shot with zero chance of stopping on a tournament-prepared, firm green.

On swithching to hybrids, the difference in that part of my game was astounding....

David Ober

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Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2013, 03:33:26 PM »
Trap drawing David,

I freely admit that the ball change has changed scoring. But if you were to give a player a balata ball would he not score worse, even though he is the same golfer? Does that mean he is or is not a better golfer, because he has a new ball to play?

I disagree that no new courses since 1970 would result in lower average scores. Many new courses since 1970 do not penalize golfers as much. For example, my first experience with a wide playing area course (Rustic Canyon) resulting in a personal best. I.e., we average golfers score our better average scores on such courses. A club outing to a wide course from our narrow course had many of the members mad about how they were being beaten by higher handicappers.

You completely ignore the video camera in your analysis. This may be the biggest fault of your post.


And you're right, the video camera is probably as big an advancement as the larger, lighter driver, with the hybrid a distant, (though still important) third.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour coming out against anchoring ban , PGA America already has
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2013, 05:26:33 PM »

I would be a better player today with a balata ball than I was in 1989 with a balata ball for two reasons:

1) Longer, lighter drivers with much, much larger sweet spots that would allow me to hit the ball farther and more accurately, on average.

...

But that driver may be 2 inches longer slightly magnifying any mistakes, and that ball will be spin much higher adding more magnification.

For the average golfer, that is a recipe for disaster. If you, are good enough, then perhaps not for you. Are you still steadfast in your belief?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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