Frank, Jeff, Tim, Ian & Tom,
Thanks for your input.
But how much flow of information occurs on site that's site specific ?
It seems as though most of the on site conceptual exchanges are vertical, from associates/employees.
But how much flow of information occurs horizontally, between peer architects, on site ?
Understanding that Crump might not be the best example due to his being a novice, but Crump got stumped in trying to route Pine Valley.
While I don't see modern day architects getting "stumped" in the same way, they may get stumped in the sense that they haven't discovered the optimum routing, that which would produce a better golf course.
Two courses come to mind.
Friars Head and Sebonack
At Friars Head Fazio provided an early routing.
At Sebonack Nicklaus/Lipe provided an early routing.
Neither routing survived as the final routing.
Both routings succumbed to competing routings although the circumstances were different at each course.
How different was Fazio's routing from C&C's ?
How different was the Nicklaus/Lipe routing from the Doak routing ?
My understanding was that there was some similarities/overlap/duplication.
How amenable would Fazio have been to suggestions by C&C ?
How amenable would Nicklaus/Lipe have been to suggestions by Doak ?
How amenable would either design team be to suggestions by other architects ?
And, under any circumstances, would they solicit opinions ?
Streamsong would seem to present a different set of circumstances where the exchange of ideas between peer architects may have occurred.
It would be interesting to hear if Tom Doak had any ideas or influence on the Red Course and if C&C had any ideas or influence over the Blue course.
Was Streamsong a modern day Pine Valley in terms of sharing of ideas ?
Patrick:
You really should do a little more reading and a little less writing. I've already shared the process of design for Streamsong and the details of my collaboration with Bill Coore on the routing several times on this forum. We worked together on the routing; Bill suggested holes, I suggested holes, we changed each other's holes, etc. But, once we figured out which holes belonged to each of us, we worked separately with our own teams from there. I expected we might walk around with each other a bit more and make comments about what we saw the other guys doing, but in the end, we both respect the other's team of guys, and neither of us wanted to meddle in that dynamic.
When we did share with Bill's guys that we liked a particular feature we'd seen, they were not sure if we were serious, or pulling their legs. We were serious -- but the reaction was so funny that we were encouraged to do it more.
As to routings -- in general, I don't like to see other architects' routings for a property before I start working on my own. If I see an idea or two that I like, it's hard to get it out of my head and look at different alternatives. I don't mind looking at other routing ideas later in the process, but not at the beginning. That's why, even though I try to get my associates more involved in the routing process, it's hard to do, because I don't want their ideas to distract me from coming up with some of my own ... and by the time I get my ideas refined a little bit, there's not a lot of room for them to change it around.
As for Sebonack, I was only given a blank topo to start with, and I did my routing -- which was pretty much the final routing -- on that blank topo, without even walking the ground first. It's rare that it turns out that way. Anyway, the client liked the routing, so that was the routing. I never did see the routing(s) that Jack had done previously, or a routing that Tom Fazio did, either. I think Jim Urbina looked at those at some point, but I never bothered, because I was confident I'd come up with a really good solution.
P.S. I wonder how many days Tillinghast or Thomas actually spent out on site at Pine Valley with George Crump. Do you have any idea? I think Bill Coore and I spent five or six days together in Florida during the routing phase, though at least half the time on those days we were each out looking on our own.