OK, let's cut the bullshit . . . .

[Gib_Papazian]

Why is #10 at Riviera considered a "great hole" -  and yet my beloved #14 at Bandon Trails has been earmarked for yet another rebuild?

If Ben and Bill were on the south side of the divot like The Captain, would Mike Keiser pause for a moment before rethinking one of the world's most beguiling holes?


 

[mike_beene]

Please be easy on me,but I think 10 at Riviera is clowns mouth goofy

[RJ_Daley]

 

to each his own...

[Garland Bayley]

Please be easy on me,but I think 10 at Riviera is clowns mouth goofy

Apparently you missed the playoff where the thoughtful approach to the hole beat the mindless bomb and gouge approach.
Did not the brilliance of the hole shine through to you?

[Peter Pallotta]

My opinion, Gib - because all of us (developers, architects, golfers, so-called architecture buffs) absolutely refuse -- perhaps have become incapable of -- giving anything the time it needs to become beloved in our eyes.  A feckless, demanding, childish and petulant generation we are, and the cognoscenti most of all (since we somehow believe we've earned the right to our petulant demands). If it isn't perfect right off the bat -- and by perfect we mean: if it doesn't meet our own wants, or at least the wants of a majority of those we consider our equals -- then it has to go, it has to be changed. The problem is always out there and not not in here -- and architects have come to believe that they are being reasonable and practical professionals by responding to what the so-called marketplace demands. I'd like to see a few of them becoming more ego-maniacal and prima-donna ish instead.

Peter

[Garland Bayley]

Why is #10 at Riviera considered a "great hole" -  and yet my beloved #14 at Bandon Trails has been earmarked for yet another rebuild?

If Ben and Bill were on the south side of the divot like The Captain, would Mike Keiser pause for a moment before rethinking one of the world's most beguiling holes?


 

As per 14 at Bandon Trails, I have to agree that it is a great hole that I don't see the necessity for messing with unless you are a pencil and scorecard golfer. But in that case, you are just a pencil and scorecard golfer and should have no say in the matter.

[Jim_Kennedy]

What are C&C's opinions?

[mike_beene]

I just think the green is over the top and the safe play requires an element of luck as does the bomb.I like the concept.It is just a little over the top at today's speeds.

[Brett_Morrissy]

it appears the main criticism for both these holes is:

"...at these green speeds"

which, it seems, would allow for a very cheap and viable fix.

[Scott Warren]

Mike Beene:

Please be easy on me,but I think 10 at Riviera is clowns mouth goofy

What about the hole don't you like?

Was it different "in the flesh" than you expected from pics and TV?

[mike_beene]

I like the concept but here is where I think it suffers: The best angle is a ball hit down the left which has always been the case.However, now a layup left requires a very precise pitch to even stay on the green.Thus the left layup has not given the advantage you should get from playing safe.The better angle is to play farther down the left and as you do that it seems lick gets involved,ie do you run through ,hit the trees or get the perfect angle.A little less slope on the green or a touch more width makes me like the hole a lot.

[Bob_Huntley]

I like the concept but here is where I think it suffers: The best angle is a ball hit down the left which has always been the case.However, now a layup left requires a very precise pitch to even stay on the green.Thus the left layup has not given the advantage you should get from playing safe.The better angle is to play farther down the left and as you do that it seems lick gets involved,ie do you run through ,hit the trees or get the perfect angle.A little less slope on the green or a touch more width makes me like the hole a lot.

"A little less slope on the green or a touch more width makes me like the hole a lot."

How true.

Never having been long enough to bomb it to the green I always went down to the left. It did require a deft shot with the wedge but it seems to me that the right side of the green seems somewhat higher than I remember and makes the shot harder to pull off.

Bob

[David_Elvins]

Thus the left layup has not given the advantage you should get from playing safe

WTF

The player that plays safe should get an advantage???

That is a GCA concept I have not heard of. 

IMO the best holes in golf have no right or wrong way to play them.  Which is why I like both 14 at bt and 10 at riv.

[Adam Clayman]

Physically, it's great because of the angle of the green, combined with it's width (or lack thereof).

Conceptually, It's great because BECAUSE for the last century, while the better golfer's opinion shaped the mindset that more and more length, and less and less width, were desirable aspects that made the game better. This sat there, lying in wait, for just this moment in time, proving to all those know-it-alls, they know nothing.

[Terry Lavin]

Watching the hole this week it seems like the hole rewards luck more often than it rewards skill. That is quintessential quirk, which for some reason, is more tolerable on an old course than a modern design.

[Sean Leary]

Why is #10 at Riviera considered a "great hole" -  and yet my beloved #14 at Bandon Trails has been earmarked for yet another rebuild?

If Ben and Bill were on the south side of the divot like The Captain, would Mike Keiser pause for a moment before rethinking one of the world's most beguiling holes?


 

As per 14 at Bandon Trails, I have to agree that it is a great hole that I don't see the necessity for messing with unless you are a pencil and scorecard golfer. But in that case, you are just a pencil and scorecard golfer and should have no say in the matter.

Why should a pencil and scorecard golfer have no say? Most golfers actually keep score...

I would guess that most of the year that 10 green does not play this firm, and is very playable for the members, which should be the main point.

[Mark Johnson]

first off, let me say that the #14 at BT is probably one of my favorite 15-20.

That said, I think the #10 at riveria is a great hole with a middle or front pin position.    The back pin position, on shaved greens, doesnt always reward good shots or in many cases a good layup.

From many layup spots, the play to to try to hit the ball to the back left part of the green/fringe in hopes you can have something uphill.   Ideally, there would be a low option to get the ball back towards the pin, but the bunkering makes this impossible

[Guy Nicholson]

What's the better comparison to Riviera #10 -- BT #14 or PD #6?

[Mike Schott]

I don't know the 14th at Bandon other than what I've seen here and on the web but my guess is that Bandon has a different role than a private club like Riviera. Perhaps the golfer who travels to a remote spot in Oregon for world class golf is not as enamored with this type of hole as one who knows what they are getting when they choose to join Riviera.

Also, regarding Riviera 10, who says it shouldn't take 2 well placed shots to make par especially when the approach is with a wedge?

[Garland Bayley]

Why is #10 at Riviera considered a "great hole" -  and yet my beloved #14 at Bandon Trails has been earmarked for yet another rebuild?

If Ben and Bill were on the south side of the divot like The Captain, would Mike Keiser pause for a moment before rethinking one of the world's most beguiling holes?


 

As per 14 at Bandon Trails, I have to agree that it is a great hole that I don't see the necessity for messing with unless you are a pencil and scorecard golfer. But in that case, you are just a pencil and scorecard golfer and should have no say in the matter.

Why should a pencil and scorecard golfer have no say? Most golfers actually keep score...

I would guess that most of the year that 10 green does not play this firm, and is very playable for the members, which should be the main point.

Same reason your mother used to give you. Because I say so!

Seriously, pencil and scorecard is antithesis to the origins of the game where they played the like.

[Rich Goodale]

What's the better comparison to Riviera #10 -- BT #14 or PD #6?

Old Course 12 or 1 or 5 or 15 at Dornoch or that one on RM West that I am to old to remember and too lazy to Google...

[Adam Clayman]

Cutting the bs appears impossible.

On 'Killing Lincoln" last night, Hanks said there were 1500 witness statements, to the President being shot. No two were the same.

Whatever happened to being able to stop balls on sewer caps?

The Kikuyu green side bunker edges, makes using them, to deflect a ball predictably, a major factor in not getting it close, to Sundays back right pin position.

It's not a wonder that a green with some rub, would be called out as unfair, or requiring luck.

[Garland Bayley]

Thus the left layup has not given the advantage you should get from playing safe

WTF

The player that plays safe should get an advantage???

That is a GCA concept I have not heard of. 

IMO the best holes in golf have no right or wrong way to play them.  Which is why I like both 14 at bt and 10 at riv.

It's the most common concept in GCA. It's called risk and reward. If the player takes the risk and drives the green, he has the advantage. If he fails, he forfeits the advantage to the player that played safe. The ability to properly analyze the risk, and act appropriately on it is supposed to be one of the primary tenets of the game.

[Jason Thurman]

Also, regarding Riviera 10, who says it shouldn't take 2 well placed shots to make par especially when the approach is with a wedge?

Agreed. And I'm not even sure it does take 2 well placed shots to make par. It looked yesterday like a lot of these guys could have just played to the center of the green and made easy enough 2 putt pars, but couldn't resist going at the flag on such a short second shot. Bill Haas was one of many examples.

Beljan tried to play a prudent second and just failed to execute. It sure didn't look like the hole was anywhere near "too hard" for these guys. Some of them just tried to hit stupid shots.

[Jud_T]

Why exactly does BT 14 need another redo?  I thought the first one appropriately addressed the issue of average hacks picking up with an X.