[Patrick_Mucci]

architects, is Billy Bell amongst them ?

[Bill_McBride]

Which one?   Big difference in talent and legacy. 

[Tom_Doak]

What are the best courses that Billy Bell, Sr. built on his own?  Honestly, I have no idea, off the top of my head.

I know he contributed a lot to George Thomas' work, and to the bunkering at SFGC, but since it's not at all documented exactly what of the work was his call, I don't know how you can factor that into the discussion accurately.

[John Kirk]

Good timing Patrick, as I considered starting a thread which names your most underrated course, which in my case is The Riviera CC.  And that's not because I watched the tournament on TV today.  I just think that course is very nicely put together.

Billy Bell is also the architect of record at Stanford University, which in its bastardized form is still a fine walk in the park.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy Naccarato is the living expert on the Bells, pere and fils, but I guess we aren't going to get input from him here.  

Billy Bell Sr's claim to fame was originally working as construction superintendent on Thomas' Southern California courses.  

[John Kirk]

OK, second most underrated course behind Ballyneal, says the broken record.

[Alex Miller]

What are the best courses that Billy Bell, Sr. built on his own?  Honestly, I have no idea, off the top of my head.

I know he contributed a lot to George Thomas' work, and to the bunkering at SFGC, but since it's not at all documented exactly what of the work was his call, I don't know how you can factor that into the discussion accurately.

Good timing Patrick, as I considered starting a thread which names your most underrated course, which in my case is The Riviera CC.  And that's not because I watched the tournament on TV today.  I just think that course is very nicely put together.

Billy Bell is also the architect of record at Stanford University, which in its bastardized form is still a fine walk in the park.

George C Thomas also has a Stanford Golf Course credit on wikipedia, John.

I think there are a few courses where it's thought that the club has held on to the Thomas name when in fact Bell was the primary architect. Tommy Naccarrato has told me that Palos Verdes CC is primarily a Billy Bell course though the website still claims Thomas was involved. San Clemente has 9 original Bell holes which are very good. Soule Park, La Jolla CC, and San Diego CC are all Bells to my knowledge, but it's hard to tell in many cases...

I think it's hard to say if he's over/underrated because we don't every course that Thomas may have been involved in and also because many of his courses have been subject to many rounds and poor maintenance over the years.

[Tim_Weiman]

Bill,

Maybe Tommy would come back for a special guest appearance. Bell is certainly a favorite of his.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Maybe Tommy would come back for a special guest appearance. Bell is certainly a favorite of his.

Tim,

I'll ask him.

Is he restricted to this thread or can he chime in on the "National Signing Day" thread ?

[Sam Morrow]

Amongst the living I'd toss in Keith Foster and Tripp Davis.

[Sven Nilsen]

Stanley Thompson

Agree on Foster for the modern list.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Just when I thought I was out, THEY DRAG ME BACK IN.......

For those of you that don't know me, hello. For those that I haven't talked to in a long, long time, its good to read you! For those of you that never wanted to see me back on this site, well, don't worry, it won't be permanent!

William Park Bell is a rather much studied and researched friend of mine and yes, he doesn't get a lot of credit in this day and age, but when you step on one of his courses, I can tell you that its easy to miss a lot, simply because the work hasn't evolved very good. For instance, one day while standing on the 5th tee at Recreation Park in Long Beach, I was a horrified witness as to the way American Golf maintains Bell bunkers, mind you that these bunkers are far from what Bell ever constructed. Its just a perfect example of gross neglect and mis-management--weed whacking edges twice weekly (I was told by the superintendent) and each and every time its done with little care of precision of a work crew that doesn't even speak a word of English, let alone know that Tijuana Country Club aka Agua Caliente was a pure as W.P. Bell as you could get! (***Note to some of you regarding a recent Dr. Alister MacKenzie thread regarding his involvement at Tijuana, well I suspect he liked the night life there beyond the race track. Nothing more! Well, other then the place to go get a legal drink of Scotch during Prohibition)

Agua Caliente aka Tijuana CC


Sadly today, Agua Caliente aka Tijuana CC is a lot like the rest of the Bell courses. The bones are there, but it could take a lot of tree clearing, as well as the end of the drug cartel in Tijuana to make it viable. Don't plan on it any time soon.

There are many great Bell courses, and, I think its important to note that we should never confuse William F. Bell for his much more adept Father.  

Palos Verdes (All Bell, NO Thomas. Thomas came and visited, but thats about it. A lot of confusion in this comes from the fact that both The Captain and Ed Tufts, the Father of Golf in Southern California, endorsed a lot of developments. Palos Verdes was one of these, as was The Royal Palms. Advertisements for the club show that the course was laid out and built by William Park Bell. this is nothing to be ashamed about! In fact, i think it should be revered, because Palos Verdes is that good!)

The architecture at Palos Verdes is some solid and quirky Bell, located on a very rolling site abundant with natural hazards and it really gets going right from the start. There are a lot of carries over gulches, barrancas, pits and swallows and all of them are of quirky character that is missing from most modern Golf Architecture nowadays.

Shown here is the tee shot from the two-shot 13th, and while the trees have grown very tall; the foliage extra thick over on that side, what a great hole only to be followed by an even better hole at the 14th!  If it was in the Tom Doak Confidential Guide To Golf Courses, I have no doubt that the 14th would earn its well-deserved 3 or 4 exclamation point rating should he ever see it for himself. A solid hole, which Todd Eckenrode is currently getting ready to restore by the cutting down of a tree planted by one of those misguided green committee member/types we have come to know and love in certain golf architecture circles.



Woodland Hills aka Girard Country Club As I had mentioned in my GCA interview, Geoff Shackelford recently oversaw the renovation and restoration of a lot of cool features at Woodland Hills aka Girard CC.  For most, its a course that doesn't get a lot of recognition, but its one of Bell's more quirkier designs which initially was going to be laid out by John Duncan Dunn thats located on a very unique piece of golfing ground with a lot of rolls and movement that would make the most ardent purist proud.

One of the highlights of the round is the drive over a hill just off of the front of the tee on #5 to a fairway with a cleverly placed bunker guarding the right portion of fairway. The green rests on the side of a hill nestled between it and the road.

Up next, you suddenly leave the property for two holes in common area--a real quirk in the routing that is really unique, because your actually in the neighborhood across the street for two very good one-shot holes, a +200 yard up-hill and a +/-165 yard downhill. All of the five one-shot holes have a very strong sense of character with no similarities and the two that are on the back nine are worthy of great architectural discussion.

Woodland Hills View from the First Tee, 1926



As seen today from the same spot, but the club is recovering from tree infestation, a bold move by a smart green committee and great superintendent!



There are ore Bell courses to talk about, but here are two to get it going.

[Ben Sims]

Nothing like drinking a few too many Pacificos, throwing Chris Isaak on the iPod and reading The Emperor can do for a man.  I too think Riviera to be one of the more underrated courses in America.  Like the man said, "Strange what desire will make foolish people do."   

Thanks Tommy.  That was a great post. Hang out here a bit more, please. 

[Adam Clayman]

It's likely we will never really know, since Bell's work wasn't respected enough to survive the green's chairmen's whim. And is therefore indeterminable. Pictures can make us wonder, but to really know??

[Matthew Petersen]

I've played a few courses attributed to Bell here in AZ ... Randolph North, El Rio, Encanto, Biltmore Adobe, maybe some others ... and it's hard to know what to think of them.

All are parkland layouts, which are rare enough here. Randolph North is clearly the class of those I listed, a good course that hosted an LPGA event for many years. But how much work was done on it over the years? I have no idea and the city of Tucson probably hasn't kept much in the way of records.

Biltmore Adobe is quite good today thanks to some nice recent work there by our Forrest Richardson; he could surely answer better how close what is there now is to what Bell built.

As to Encanto and El Rio, I will say this. For two frankly rundown municipal facilities, it's never been hard to see that the bones of something good were there. (Far more so than, say, a comparably beat down muni like Maryvale in Phoenix, which was done by Bell's son and has never struck me as anything worth much time--even if you did get rid of the overabundant trees.)

[Joey Chase]

    I recently was in Arizona and played Mesa CC, a Billy Bell course.  After several days of playing modern desert courses, it was a big change of pace.

    Very classic parkland golf in that it has mature Eucalyptus trees sporadically lining the holes.  Small generally tilting back to front greens, some fairly severe.  The bunkering is sparce and has become basic in shape.  It was completely boxed in by houses as well, but not lined with homes on each hole, so not as bad.  He utilized a large elevation change that dissected the property in interesting ways and as often as he possibly could without becoming repetitive.  

    It has the bones of a good golf course that would be continually enjoyable for the members.  I was surprised to have never heard of it before, but I enjoyed it thoroughly.  

[Jason Topp]

I never know if a course is by the senior or the junior Bell.  Tucson Country Club was built in 1947.  Does that mean it is senior?

[Pete Lavallee]

William Park Bell died in 1956, so TCC is probably his. William Francis Bell took over afterwards. Lynn Shackelford insists that Jr's mother routed his courses for him; any truth to this?

[Tommy Naccarato]

Pete, Since you rarely come on to Max's anymore and gift us with your wonderful presence, I want to inform yoo that your off by three years on WPB's death. (for that, you owe me one of your cheap cigars and a shot of your expensive Scotch. I only want the good stuff Pete!)

October 24, 1953 after collapsing at his home from a viral attack, Bell spent two days in the hospital and then succumbed after a massive heart attack. Ironically, his only son, William Francis died much the same way in 1979.

The rumor of Bell's wife routing the golf courses comes from the late Bill McCauley who had purchased the William F. Belll-designed Los Coyotes Country Club. One day while visiting with him in his office at Los Coyotes, he told me the story of how WFB made an appointment with him when he had just purchased the course and came in to introduce himself toting an older lady with him, who he identified and introduced as his mother. During the meeting, the elderly lady had to use the restroom, and when he had the chance, Bill McCauley quizzically asked William Francis, why would you bring your mother to a meeting like this!?!?!

Bell informed him that his Mother was actually his partner, as the company, was called W.P.Bell and Son, but that also, don't sell his mother short, that she used to assist, and most of the time came up with the final routing of the golf courses for not only him, but his Dad too.

All of this was in the same office I sat in and listened to this story. Whether its actually true or not, I don't know, but this was the way the story was conveyed to me.

I've played a few courses attributed to Bell here in AZ ... Randolph North, El Rio, Encanto, Biltmore Adobe, maybe some others ... and it's hard to know what to think of them.

All are parkland layouts, which are rare enough here. Randolph North is clearly the class of those I listed, a good course that hosted an LPGA event for many years. But how much work was done on it over the years? I have no idea and the city of Tucson probably hasn't kept much in the way of records.

Biltmore Adobe is quite good today thanks to some nice recent work there by our Forrest Richardson; he could surely answer better how close what is there now is to what Bell built.

As to Encanto and El Rio, I will say this. For two frankly rundown municipal facilities, it's never been hard to see that the bones of something good were there. (Far more so than, say, a comparably beat down muni like Maryvale in Phoenix, which was done by Bell's son and has never struck me as anything worth much time--even if you did get rid of the overabundant trees.)

Matthew, First off, I think its best to tell the truth here, in that I literally wrestled with this post of yours all day. I wrote a lengthy and somewhat (very) strong worded post regarding your thoughts. After confiding with my brain trust, most all felt that I was wording it all too strongly to you and that it would do nothing but create animosity and hurt. (for which I apologize) Others felt that I should just unload on you--simply because your post is architecturally uninformed. (Your not exactly spelling out a lot of architectural knowledge in the post; just mentioning that these are parkland layouts (Funny, I could have swore most of Phoenix and Tucson were desert!?!?!) proves this point. You make these statements and its like the childhood gossip game, Post Office. 30 years from now if someone should be reading it, they will have made Phoenix out to be a jungle wasteland filled with redwood trees!

This is why its best to cut out the revisionism and stick to the accurate facts: Bell in Arizona = Desert Golf Courses

So, please excuse my thoughts about putting out a sharp-barbed post, degrading those thoughts, and explaining to you (which my brain trust thinks I should do) the what, how and where of William Park Bell. At least in Phoenix.

With that.......

The recent work by Forrest Richardson at The Adobe course was a decade ago. I think it would be better to just simply call the course a Forrest Richardson design course on top of a partial routing by William P. Bell. It is now and never will be anything close to what William Park Bell designed there.  I've stood at the crypt of William Park Bell and begged for forgiveness for not trying to better protect the course, but unfortunately, I failed. I figured this out about middle of the process when getting the opportunity of a lifetime to help out. Sadly, I fucked up the end game. (term ruthlessly stolen from Charlie Wilson)

Do yourself a favor, pick up a book called Golf Architecture in America and memorize it from cover to cover. Then, come back on GCA, make a post concerning Captain Thomas and William P. Bell and I'll be really happy and thrilled to participate on it with you. The choice is yours and its real Red Pill/Green Pill stuff. Just like the Matrix.

Best,
T

P.S. the "Old Men" that were everywhere on the Bell-designed Adobe Course no longer exist thanks to the maintenance practices throughout the years to make it thrive in green! (Thus taking away the very beautiful nature of the property.)



And there is this one, showing some of the more entertaining land from 1927

[Gib_Papazian]

Emperor,

What about Brookside in Pasadena? I played (read: snuck on) the #2 course 100 times in college and recall the putting surfaces were wonderfully devious. I guess for a 6100 yard course that is appropriate, but can you compare those greens with other Bell courses?

And when the hell are you going to get your ass up here for a few days? Her Redness, Nick and Princess Smartypants would also love to see you.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Gib, #2 is both Bell and Tillinghast together. It started off as 9 by Bell, but when they formed partnership in the late 30's they remodeled 9 and added 9 via WPA money.

Yes, soon, very soon  You see, I left my heart in Burlingame.....

[Jerry Kluger]

To the Emperor I shall say hello and hope you will participate here more often.  With respect to Mr. Bell I will admit to complete ignorance so I will say nothing. 

[Michael George]

Who is this Tommy Naccarato and why so much love for a guy with 7 total posts?  


.... just kidding.  Thanks for your participation Tommy.

[Bill_McBride]

Well done Tommy, that was much gentler than your draft!

Just so I'll understand - are you saying Forrest (and you I guess) made no attempt to restore the Adobe as it previously existed based on aerial photos and other existing documentation?

[Tommy Naccarato]

Thanks Bill.

In my opinion it was just the opposite. I think Forrest thought he was restoring, but early on it was anything but that. He just used the word "Restoration" as a selling point to both the client and the media. Its what probably allowed for my participation.

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