[Josh Tarble]

I thought both courses were a relatively easy walk...but if I had to choose I would say the Red is a bit harder in my opinion.  Right out of the gate, the first 5 green to tee walks are uphill and some of the lengthier on the course.

I really think it depends on which course you play first.

I did notice that in some of the sand it was a bit difficult to walk...very soft and there is a LOT of it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Whitaker,

Hidden Creek presents a similar challenge on the greens.

There are a lot of subtle breaks that are very, very difficult to read, even with repeat play.

From one perspective, that's a beguiling feature that makes repeat play more interesting

Hidden Creek is a private club. Do you think there is a different standard for private courses that will be played by mostly the same golfers over and over versus a resort course that may be seen by the same golfer only once or twice in a year? I'm not saying there should be... just asking your opinion for reference.


Michael,

That's a valid point, golfers who play private courses should have an accelerated learning curve versus the occasional and random visitor.

But, again, isn't that beguiling nature part of the inherent lure for return play ?

Do you want to return to play a course that reveals itself in one play ?

One of the lures at Hidden Creek is the "newness" of the greens with each repeat play,

Winged Foot and NGLA have that same element.

In this day and age of softening greens this would seem to be a refreshing architectural asset and unlike so many others on this site, I'm not a Doak "kiss up"  , so you know that my comment/s on this issue are genuine and absent any bias.

[Michael Whitaker]

You probably shouldn't complain about not being able to read the greens the first time out when you didn't spring for a caddie.

Why? Should I not be able to at least have a chance without someone coaching me around the course. I didn't just fall off a turnip truck... I've played a lot of golf on a lot of quirky courses, so I'm no novice at this stuff. If I were playing for score I would definitely see the advantage of taking a caddy, but the first time round a course to get the feel of the place... not so much.

[Michael Whitaker]

Patrick,

I played NGLA this past fall and NEVER experienced anything like the "trickeration" I felt at Streamsong Blue. I'm not saying the greens can't be learned... I'm not saying they can't be fun (Neil Regan would be in absolute ecstasy!)... I'm just saying that I felt frustrated and bamboozled time after time and (it seemed to me) for no apparent reason other than to prove it could be done. Mission accomplished!

As I said before, I may learn to love the greens and consider them the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe I just had a bad attitude. Luckily for me I will have the chance in a couple of weeks to somewhat sort this out.

I'm really looking forward to hearing about your visit as well as watching the other 15 guys in my group tackle the courses.

Travel safe!

Mike

[Tim Pitner]

Mike,

How would you compare/contrast Streamsong Blue's greens with those of some of Tom's other courses, say Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal?

Thanks,
Tim

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

How would you compare/contrast Streamsong Blue's greens with those of some of Tom's other courses, say Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal?


Tim,

I don't want to speak for Michael, but I don't think you can compare the greens due to the significant difference in their speeds.

Streamsong will pride itself on fast and firm.

With the winds at Bandon, high green speeds aren't the norm.

Michael,

What dates will your group be there ?

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike,

How would you compare/contrast Streamsong Blue's greens with those of some of Tom's other courses, say Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal?

Thanks,
Tim

Tim,

Loved Pacific Dunes. Loved Ballyneal. Loved Cape Kidnappers. Loved Sebonack. Loved Old Mac. I had issues with St Andrews Beach, but honestly, don't remember exactly what they were because I was so focused on the uphill nature of the course.

If you do a search of this site you will see that I was a big defender of the greens at Old Mac versus a friend of mine who was railing about them. Doak does bold greens. I get it. I know what to expect. Every one of his courses has a few bold greens (some more than others) that cause the golfer to pullout his hair. As i said before, I LOVE quirk and enjoy a good puzzle to solve on a green. But, when you feel like a puzzle has no solution and you are being tricked just for the sake of being tricked it starts to wear on you. Maybe the greens on this course are no different than the other Doak's I have played and I just took on a bad attitude.

Anyway... the greens are not my primary issue. They can be dealt with over time. My real issue is the overall uphill nature of the walk required by the course. Others I respect on this site have said that I'm overstating this issue. So, I'll bow down until I revisit and determine if I was just a tired grumpy old golfer, or if indeed the course plays too uphill for my liking. I walked 41 rounds of links golf in Scotland and England over six weeks this summer/fall... carrying my bag or pulling a trolley for every one. I never once felt as exhausted as I did climbing those last few holes with a trolley at Streamsong Blue.

I'll make up my mind in a couple of weeks. If I feel differently then I will eat crow. But, at the end of the day this is all subjective stuff, anyway. There is no way Doke, C&C or anyone else can make everyone happy all the time... even their core users.

Patrick - I'm part of Howard Riefs' group.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

Dates ?

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,

Dates ?

March 7-10

[Jason Thurman]

Michael,

Is it possible that some of the "deception" in the greens was the result of grain? As a resident of the Midwest, I'm atrocious when I get on Bermuda greens. I think the surfaces at Streamsong are MiniVerde, which is supposed to be nice, but surely still grainier than the bents/fescues on other Doak courses you list. On a highly-contoured green with grain, it's easy for me to imagine a long day of 5-10 foot misreads.

Just wondering if that might be a culprit. I understand your frustration, and agree that having a caddie shouldn't be a prerequisite for being able to read a putt competently.

[Burt Bines]

Right on point.  Just played both courses.  Nobody had any idea as what grass was planted in the fairways.  Maybe a little more training by "professionals" will help.  That said, well worth the trip, which will be made infinitely more accessible and more enjoyable once the planned airstrip and currently under construction hotel are completed.  Also hear rumors of adding two more courses.  For those use to FL golf, it is hard to believe you are in FL.  Dunes and grasses framing fairways and holes, especially on the Red (Coore-Crenshaw) course are fabulous.  

[jeffwarne]

Right on point.  Just played both courses.  Nobody had any idea as what grass was planted in the fairways.  Maybe a little more training by "professionals" will help.  That said, well worth the trip, which will be made infinitely more accessible and more enjoyable once the planned airstrip and currently under construction hotel are completed.  Also hear rumors of adding two more courses.  For those use to FL golf, it is hard to believe you are in FL.  Dunes and grasses framing fairways and holes, especially on the Red (Coore-Crenshaw) course are fabulous.  

Burt,
Welcome
When you say "nobody" are you referring to caddies or someone else?
would knowing "as what grass was planted in the fairways" help one read greens?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

With new Bermuda's, cut low and putting at 11, grain isn't a pronounced factor

[Michael Whitaker]

Grain is not a problem. The greens on both courses are MiniVerde and putt like a dream.

[Jason Thurman]

That's good news. Gives me hope that someday I'll be able to take fewer than 40 putts on a course in the Dirty South.

[Tim Pitner]

I had issues with St Andrews Beach, but honestly, don't remember exactly what they were because I was so focused on the uphill nature of the course.

Sensing a theme here . . .

[Rick Shefchik]

Grain is not a problem. The greens on both courses are MiniVerde and putt like a dream.

That was my experience, too. My caddie was obsessed with the grain, to the point where he was ignoring obvious topographical factors. There's going to be a learning curve for everyone there, but I suggest going in with the idea that what you see is what you should putt.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

When you were at Silloth and walked 36 a day, you were coming off 41 days straight of walking if I recall correctly.  You must have been in pretty good walking shape.  Were you walking as much before SS?  When we were at Silloth I walked 36 a day for 6 days in a row and felt alright.  I was in pretty good walking shape then.  At SS, I hadn't walked much for months.  It was more tiring.

As for SS being mostly uphill, by definition, if you start and end at the clubhouse you've gone just as much down as up over the course of the round.    The starters box (ignoring the the elevation of the tee) is about 160'.  The lowest point is the 3rd fairway at around 130' and the highest point is around the 5th tee at 180'.  The far end of the course at 14 green is about 155'.  So, at most, from lowest to highest you're going up 50'.  That's pretty modest as hills go.  My home courses have a number of climbs that are more like 100', but then I think they have the most uphill holes in the world, and carts are mandatory.  

I am curious about the "trickeration" of the greens.  Could you describe an example or two or three?  I three putted a few times, but mostly because I was in the wrong place on the green relative to the pin.  Sometimes there was no way to get from A to B and lag it close.  Sometimes it was getting the speed wrong and sometimes over- or under-reading the break.  I never felt that this was trickery, just my unfamiliarity with the greens.  

And, I did notice grain, starting on the putting green, although I couldn't really tell if it contributed to my putting woes.

[Carl Nichols]

Pat:
Define successful. 



I'll defer to Daniel Webster's definition.

Pat:
It was a serious question.  Assuming you're asking about solely financial success, what ROI do you think Streamsong needs to be considered successful?  How much insight do you have into the project to even come up with a number?  And what is Bandon's ROI?

[Tom_Doak]

To be honest, I never thought about how many uphill or downhill holes we had on the Blue course; we were in Florida and I guess I figured there was no way it could get excessive.  And Bill Coore was working on it with me, and we never discussed it as a factor.  The Red does have less up and down to it, because it tends to go around the outside edges of the property, where the elevation is working back to the original grade.  Other than the first tee, the high point of the property is #1 green, and the Blue course has several holes radiating around that hub, whereas only the 15th green of the Red course is up on that hill.

But, I am sitting here looking at the topo of the property, and trying to decide how much is too much, generally.

Michael, did you walk up to the first tee?  I used to do that every morning I was on site, first thing, and that first hole does take a lot out of you right off the bat.  I was expecting that they might shuttle walking golfers up to #1 tee, but I guess I should have discussed that with the client early on, because I didn't see any sign that's what they were doing.  That in itself would make a huge difference, because the path up to #1 tee is 40 feet uphill and 40 feet back down, and then it's 20 feet uphill from the foot of the ramp to the first green.

Other really uphill holes are #4 [37 feet uphill from back tee to green] and #14 [17 feet uphill from fairway landing area to green].

But, what else?  #3 drops 10-12 feet from tee to fairway and comes back up ten feet to the green.  On #6 the tee and landing area are level, although you do have to walk uphill 10-15 feet once you get off the tee.  From the bridge on #7 up the hill to #8 tee is 25 feet.  And from the lower tee on #9 to the crest of the fairway is almost 20 feet uphill, then back down 13 feet to the green.

Those last four holes don't have much climb to them at all:

#15 tee elev. 155 - fairway 145 - green 145
#16 tee elev. 147 - green 155
#17 tee elev. 155 - low point of fairway 140 - green 151
#18 tee elev. 155 - top of fairway 167 - green 147


So, I'm surprised at the feedback.  But I'll be listening to hear if others think the same thing, for future reference.  Nothing I can do about it at Streamsong now.

[Chris Johnston]

I don't think the elevation change will impact project success at all.  Remember, most here are dedicated walkers.  I think, long term, most will ride at Streamsong.  Most corporate users meet, then play, and the cart will be useful.  Most corporate users will play a shorter course than most here.

I thought the Blue was a very enjoyable walk and in no way were the elevations excessive.  Elevations are part of the game and both courses were unique to Florida. 

Then again, I like and am used to vertical golf. 

[Rick Shefchik]

We walked the Blue, but the starter ferried our threesome up to the first tee in a cart (my caddie walked). The ride was appreciated, because it's a steep climb, but a slightly bigger vehicle might be a good idea; two of us stood on the back of the cart, holding onto the roof. I wasn't sure the front wheels always touched the ground.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's a great ad for Streamsong in this Month's MGA Golfer.

Maybe someone with graphic and computer capability could post it

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:
Define successful. 



I'll defer to Daniel Webster's definition.

Pat:
It was a serious question.  Assuming you're asking about solely financial success, what ROI do you think Streamsong needs to be considered successful?  How much insight do you have into the project to even come up with a number?  And what is Bandon's ROI?

Operationally, let's start with being cash flow positive,
before determining ROI.

And let's evaluate it pre and post hotel

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom - I did walk up to the first tee and, yes, it does cause one to pause for a breather before starting the round. But, I'll have to admit the view from up there is a great beginning to the adventure.

OK, so now I feel like a complete dick that I have gotten you to pull out the topo and spend time calculating the elevation changes. Let me just say that from the 7th green through to the finish of the round I felt like I was primarily walking uphill. Obviously, not every shot/hole was uphill, but most have an uphill element to them... as do the walks between holes and between shots. You obviously like to route holes from one high spot to another. Take the first hole at Cape Kidnappers, for example. It's a great hole. The tee shot plays to a hilltop landing area, with a second shot to a hilltop green. But, in between the tee box and the fairway landing area you have to walk down into a valley then climb back out of it. After the second shot, the same thing... down into a valley then climb back out. If you compare the elevations of the playing areas on a topo it looks fairly level, but there is a lot of huffing and puffing on that hole.

When I reached the 14th at Streamsong Blue and looked up at that green on top of the hill I thought, "Man, do I really have to climb up there."

Granted, I'm no spring chicken and I played the Blue for my second round of the day. I thought about this all day today during my eight hour drive back to South Carolina from Orlando. I even called my playing companion and asked him if I was totally out of line. He feels the stiff wind we experienced contributed to the difficulty of the walk, as well as the loose sand on the paths and spaces between the tee boxes and fairways. The sand definitely created a drag on the Ricksha trolley I was using on the Blue (I carried my bag on the Red).

Maybe I'm just being a pussy, but I don't think so. I'm headed back down there in two weeks for a three day visit. I'll have a chance to tour both courses several times. Once I've done that I'll be more than happy to share this geezer's final thoughts. 

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