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Carl Nichols

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2013, 03:54:06 PM »
Pat:
Define successful. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2013, 04:01:33 PM »

Mike - agreed there is a lot more uphill approaches than I initially though once we ran through them. Off the top of my head, greens at 3, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16 are above the fw while only 6, 7, 15, 18 are below.

Pat - to answer your question, I think the golf courses are the only way for it to be successful. There are too many Doak 7-8 beach resorts in Florida that the hotel won't draw unless the golf is spectacular. I wish they had built cottages instead, much lower overhead for off peak and preferred by many folders visiting a destination course. The good news is the courses are special

Is this the anti-Nicklaus course?  Most of his holes play downhill.

Pete, could you list those Doak 8's in Florida?

I was referring to Fl resorts to appeal to families. My Doak 8+s would be the Breakers, Four Seasons Palm Beach, Disney Yacht/Beach, Ritz Naples, Fountainbleu, etc.That is the competition for convention business in the summer.  Went for a golf analogy, but my point is that there are a ton of good resorts/hotels in Fl with more appealing locations than Streamsong. The edge Streamsong has is the golf is fantastic which can't be said anywhere else in Fl.

Someone asked about Disney Guests and tendencies. Summer is busy but not quite peak. It is driven off school calendars which dont impact golfing junkets as much. Our resorts are 90%+ occupied in summer yet it's the slowest time for the golf courses.

Sorry Pete, I thought you were talking about golf courses and I was scrolling through my brain cells trying to remember those Doak 7 and 8s you mentioned.  I get it now.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2013, 05:24:44 PM »
While the golf courses themselves are extremely important, that's topped by being fiscally prudent. There are too many multi-course golf resorts (Sea Island, Sea Pines, Doral, etc.) that have slipped on the business end -- and that resulted in their demise.

And while these resorts don't have the same caliber of courses as a Streamsong, one can argue that they did have a benefit of geographic location that would contribute to attracting a wider demographic of guests (families, corporate, avid golfer). Streamsong doesn't have that benefit.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2013, 05:47:36 PM »
I would definitely go back to Streamsong. In fact, I'd prefer to play there again between the months of November and April than take a chance on the weather at Bandon Dunes. I have no idea if the golf and the amenities will attract enough traffic in the summer months for the operation to be successful -- I won't be playing Streamsong in the summer. But the quality of golf is certainly comparable to Bandon, and it makes more sense as a winter destination.

I've played just one round on each course, walking the Red with a caddie the first day and walking the Blue with the same caddie the second day. Despite my creaky 60-year-old knees, neither course seemed like a particularly tough walk. I tend to agree that the greens on the Blue were more difficult, but their difficulty was obvious. Sometimes I had the ball in the wrong place, and I knew I was screwed. On the Red, my caddie and I disagreed four or five times on how to read a putt (he'd only caddied 7 rounds there at that point, and clearly hadn't learned the greens yet). I played with my wife, who really enjoyed both days, and a 3-handicap senior who thought the Blue greens were too undulating. I don't honestly know which course I prefer, but perhaps because I played it last, I found more holes on the Blue to be memorable.

We hope to visit Florida in winters to come, and if finances allow, I'd love to go back to Streamsong. We spent the night in Lakeland, so outside of $5 tap beers on the outdoor patio after the first round, it was pretty much just golf for our group. No $12 hot dog, so I didn't leave feeling gouged. We found the staff personable and eager to please. I suspect they'll smooth out any operational glitches fairly soon. Rich Mack may not be Mike Keiser, but my understanding is he has a lot of leeway in running the place. I know he's a fine player and knows what golfers want. 
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Greg Tallman

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2013, 06:09:56 PM »
I would guess that the folks at Mosaic have MUCH larger plans than any of us have heard to seen on plan. Golf will certainly play a larger role than it does at some Florida resorts but I suspect they are hedging their bet with the lodging/spa component with plans for much more.

Perhaps they put too much stock in the relative failure of World Woods (only other comparable golf facility) and determined:

1. Golf alone will not be successful
2. Florida resort business is domintaed by familes (See Disney... and others)
3. The fact the more upscale places are doing better (in comparison to the past) than the middle of the road resorts

Put that all together and you have what Streamsong is/will be for the short term. I would look for a lot more non-golf resort amenities before any more golf is contemplated... that is unless the golf end is wildly successful and the rest lags in popularity/profitability and thus flies in the face of assunpotions for the resort business in Florida.

That said, and if I had the funds to bring to life a good portion of the remaining property, golf would be a major short term focus as they could, most likley, create a completely unique offering that Florida as reall been lacking for... well, forever. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2013, 07:12:46 PM »
Well, I guess I'm the first golf course architect in history to be accused of building too many uphill holes on a golf course in Florida.  :)

Except maybe for Donald Ross.  That stupid Seminole course has some pretty severe uphill approaches on 2, 3, 6, 11, 13, 14, and 18.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2013, 07:12:59 PM »
Pat:
Define successful. 



I'll defer to Daniel Webster's definition.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2013, 07:18:16 PM »

Pat - to answer your question, I think the golf courses are the only way for it to be successful.

Pete,

My underlying assumption was that the golf courses were terrific, so that's a given and not part of the question.


There are too many Doak 7-8 beach resorts in Florida that the hotel won't draw unless the golf is spectacular.

That's why most are on the ocean.
There's no ocean or ocean views to sell at Streamsong



I wish they had built cottages instead, much lower overhead for off peak and preferred by many folders visiting a destination course. The good news is the courses are special

The overhead is much lower with a hotel versus cottages, provided your capacity and occupancy rates match.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2013, 07:20:35 PM »
Well, I guess I'm the first golf course architect in history to be accused of building too many uphill holes on a golf course in Florida.  :)

Except maybe for Donald Ross.  That stupid Seminole course has some pretty severe uphill approaches on 2, 3, 6, 11, 13, 14, and 18.

Tom, you left out 7, 15 and 16, and you could probably throw 4 and 5 in as well.

But, what did Ross know ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2013, 07:22:06 PM »
I do agree with Mike that it would be curious proposition to bring a significant other to Bowling Green.   However, downtown Tampa is exactly an hour, not two. 

Ben, 

When you take an hour to drive to Tampa, one has to assume that you'll be driving another hour back to Streamsong ;D
 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2013, 07:28:35 PM »
Michael Whitaker,

Be careful, you've wounded a "sacred cow".

My question concedes that the golf courses are very good.
Others may claim that they're superior, top 100 and others may claim that they're not top 100.
But, the question isn't about the golf course, it's about the services provided and whether those services will
promote return visits.

Pricing is another component, but, it may be far too early to determine what the market finds attractive or tolerable.

Will Streamsong become a destination golf resort that enjoys repeat play or a one and done experience ?

Bill Brightly

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2013, 07:34:29 PM »
One of the things I am most interested in is the reaction that my buddies will have to playing their first Doak course. Of the 16, I think 12 have never played one before. So if someone like Mike Whitaker expresses frustration on the greens, I can only imagine what these Northeast parkland players will think! I'm tempted to prep them with a little education on Tom's philosophy: give the player width off the tee, challenge them on the greens. But nah, I'll just let them be surprised and listen to their comments at the bar! We have 12 guys with single-digit handicaps, including a plus 1. These are typically the biggest whiners...


Pat,

For what it is worth, Kemper Sports is involved with both Bandon and Streamsong.

Hope to see you on March 13. That is our last day, playing 18 on the Red, then flying back to New Jersey.

Pete Buczkowski

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2013, 07:38:30 PM »

Pat - to answer your question, I think the golf courses are the only way for it to be successful.

Pete,

My underlying assumption was that the golf courses were terrific, so that's a given and not part of the question.


There are too many Doak 7-8 beach resorts in Florida that the hotel won't draw unless the golf is spectacular.

That's why most are on the ocean.
There's no ocean or ocean views to sell at Streamsong



I wish they had built cottages instead, much lower overhead for off peak and preferred by many folders visiting a destination course. The good news is the courses are special

The overhead is much lower with a hotel versus cottages, provided your capacity and occupancy rates match.


Totally agree, but I think the capacity and occupancy won't match during June-November.  I've got a fair amount of experience in the hospitality business, working for Disney the past 9 years.  Given that they went the hotel route, I'm surprised that they didn't build multiple smaller buildings and open in phases.  That helps control costs when the business is ramping up and protects against low season occupancy rates.  

For their sake I do hope the corporate business is viable in the summer, that would make a world of difference to making it a financial success.  I'd also hope they do something to make it more attractive for locals to play there during the off season.  World Woods does a fair bit of that with their Woods annual card, which nicely balances filling open times last minute with locals while preserving peak rates for visitors.  Either way I will still support Streamsong with my business and word of mouth unless costs get out of control.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2013, 07:56:06 PM »
Pete,

I've been telling friends and acquaintances all about Streamsong, promoting it to those whom I know love golf.

But, with NO ocean frontage and no nearby attractions, the factors influencing the success of the facility will need to transcend the "golf" and extend to the service areas.

I hate to say it, but an Olympic sized swimming pool would be an asset for convention business, especially in the summer.

Pete Buczkowski

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 08:07:00 PM »
Pete,

I've been telling friends and acquaintances all about Streamsong, promoting it to those whom I know love golf.

But, with NO ocean frontage and no nearby attractions, the factors influencing the success of the facility will need to transcend the "golf" and extend to the service areas.

I hate to say it, but an Olympic sized swimming pool would be an asset for convention business, especially in the summer.


Totally agree. I was also like to see them partner with a renowned beach resort so they can offer the best of both. A 'beach and golf' package, say 3 nights at the Four Seasons Palm Beach or Don Cesar in St Pete coupled with 2 nights at Streamsong with unlimited golf in summer.  The marketing and convention folks will be key, it is not just about having ads in golf magazine to draw in the off season.

David_Elvins

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2013, 08:31:05 PM »
The Blue has me scratching my head. I'm scheduled to play it a few more times in a couple weeks, which I need to sort out what I really think. My first impression is too many bizarre greens, too many uphill holes, too many Strantz-ish treks between holes. Also, I found it to be a very tough walk, but considering the massive fleet of carts on hand this was probably not one of Doak's primary concerns. My core principal is that golf should be fun... I felt more frustration than fun: too often punished for what seemed to be good shots and repeatedly tricked on the greens to the point of feeling like a "Mucci Moron." I'm holding my final opinion until I've toured the course a few times and watched others play it, but on first blush it didn't please me like Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.


Mike,

That sounds a lot like your appraisal of St Andrews Beach? 

long walks...uphill shots...greens that were tough on marginal shots. 

Any sililarities between the the two courses in your mind? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2013, 10:58:43 PM »
The Blue has me scratching my head. I'm scheduled to play it a few more times in a couple weeks, which I need to sort out what I really think. My first impression is too many bizarre greens, too many uphill holes, too many Strantz-ish treks between holes. Also, I found it to be a very tough walk, but considering the massive fleet of carts on hand this was probably not one of Doak's primary concerns. My core principal is that golf should be fun... I felt more frustration than fun: too often punished for what seemed to be good shots and repeatedly tricked on the greens to the point of feeling like a "Mucci Moron." I'm holding my final opinion until I've toured the course a few times and watched others play it, but on first blush it didn't please me like Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.


Mike,

That sounds a lot like your appraisal of St Andrews Beach?  

long walks...uphill shots...greens that were tough on marginal shots.  

Any sililarities between the the two courses in your mind?  


David,

Streamsong has a few downhill holes/shots. St Andrews Beach is the only course I have played in which EVERY hole was uphill!  ;D

Seriously, there are some similarities in that Mr. Doak seems to prefer uphill holes to downhill ones and with these two courses he did his best to keep the golfer playing shots to targets above his head. Obviously, these are choices that an architect makes when determining his routing. When using sloping land an architect can plan to go uphill, downhill or across the slope... so, going uphill has to be a Doak preference.

I really can't really understand the sometimes bizarre greens. As you know, I love quirk as much as anyone, but I don't find it "fun" when I don't have a flipping clue what putts are going to do... or, when a putt goes in the exact opposite direction from what my eyes and brain tell me it might... hole, after hole, after hole. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me four times, five times, six times... shame on you. I know these type greens are not critical to a Doak course because I didn't experience this at Barnbougle, Cape Kidnappers or Ballyneal. Maybe it was the competitive nature of this project (with C&C just over the dune) that pushed the creative envelope.

As I said, I will be revisiting in a couple of weeks with the chance to play both courses two or three times each. I'm sure my bluster will soften afterward.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 11:05:27 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2013, 11:15:02 PM »
Michael Whitaker,

Be careful, you've wounded a "sacred cow".

My question concedes that the golf courses are very good.
Others may claim that they're superior, top 100 and others may claim that they're not top 100.
But, the question isn't about the golf course, it's about the services provided and whether those services will
promote return visits.

Pricing is another component, but, it may be far too early to determine what the market finds attractive or tolerable.

Will Streamsong become a destination golf resort that enjoys repeat play or a one and done experience ?


Patrick,

Sorry... didn't mean to jack your thread. I'm done until I revisit Streamsong.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2013, 11:21:01 PM »
Michael Whitaker,

Hidden Creek presents a similar challenge on the greens.

There are a lot of subtle breaks that are very, very difficult to read, even with repeat play.

From one perspective, that's a beguiling feature that makes repeat play more interesting

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2013, 11:32:09 PM »
Well, I guess I'm the first golf course architect in history to be accused of building too many uphill holes on a golf course in Florida.  :)

Except maybe for Donald Ross.  That stupid Seminole course has some pretty severe uphill approaches on 2, 3, 6, 11, 13, 14, and 18.

Well, I guess that makes me the first golfer to accuse an architect of building a course with too many uphill holes in Florida.  ;) So, I've got that going for me. Maybe I'll get a mention in the new Confidential Guide!!!

Hey, I'm just a 62 year old 10 handicapper who likes to play golf too much. Love Barnbougle. Love Ballyneal. Love Old Mac. And, with time I might grow to love Streamsong... who knows. But, like my grandmother used to say, "That's why they make Chocolate and Vanilla."

I've never played Seminole. If I ever get the chance maybe I'll think it plays uphill too often as well.  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2013, 11:39:27 PM »
Michael Whitaker,

Hidden Creek presents a similar challenge on the greens.

There are a lot of subtle breaks that are very, very difficult to read, even with repeat play.

From one perspective, that's a beguiling feature that makes repeat play more interesting

Hidden Creek is a private club. Do you think there is a different standard for private courses that will be played by mostly the same golfers over and over versus a resort course that may be seen by the same golfer only once or twice in a year? I'm not saying there should be... just asking your opinion for reference.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jud_T

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2013, 08:16:57 AM »
Mike,

Did you take a caddie?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2013, 08:20:39 AM »
Mike,

Did you take a caddie?

Nope... no caddy. Do you think the caddies might know some downhill shortcuts?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jim Briggs

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2013, 08:38:14 AM »
Michael Whitaker,

Hidden Creek presents a similar challenge on the greens.

There are a lot of subtle breaks that are very, very difficult to read, even with repeat play.

From one perspective, that's a beguiling feature that makes repeat play more interesting

Michael,

Pat beat me to it.  I was going to mention Hidden Creek also.  In one of my first few round there, I had a putt that broke towards the buried elephant in the eight green and after a brief WTF, I walked off the green and commented "these guys (C&C) are good".  Now HC doesn't have a ton of greens I would call wild, maybe just #2 and #8 fall in that category so you don't feel as if you are getting constantly subjected wild greens, but as Pat mentions there is a lot of subtle breaks throughout the entire 18 that after three years, I probably still havent figure out.  I happen to enjoy that challenge, thinking I'll figure it out the next time.

Having said all that, me enjoying that challenge at HC is predicated upon repeat play and C&C's audience at HC are by their nature repeat players.

Personally, I'm looking forward to getting down to Streamsong to see for myself.  I think I am going to enjoy the challege of both the Blue and Red.

Jim

Jud_T

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2013, 08:41:41 AM »
You probably shouldn't complain about not being able to read the greens the first time out when you didn't spring for a caddie.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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