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Patrick_Mucci

Streamsong is a successful destination golf resort ?

It seems to be generally accepted that the two golf courses are worthy of travel.

But, will the operational end determine if Streamsong sinks or swims ?

Bandon had a huge advantage over Streamsong.

It had a dynamic, knowledgeable, experienced golfer running the show, not corporate hierarchy.

From those who have experienced Streamsong, what do they need to fine tune in order to make it a viable operation ?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 08:21:35 PM »
When are you planning to visit?   Might check my calendar!

Bill Brightly

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 09:45:13 PM »
Pat,

No! I think you know that given the location, SS has no chance to be successful without truly exceptional golf courses. That has to be a given, before any other operational issues might come into play to hold it back. Let's put it this way: It took me a week  put together a group of 16 golfers (March 10-13) based upon the photos, reviews, and my promise that the golf would be special. So perhaps your question should be: Even if the courses are great, might operational issues hold back SS from being successful?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:49:22 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 09:52:29 PM »
No, but I feel that once they build the:  

"Lakeside lodge which will feature 216 private guest rooms and suites on four floors
Approximately 18,000 total square feet of flexible conference and meeting space
A full-service spa, fitness center and outdoor lakeside pool
Casual and fine dining restaurants, and multiple bars including a rooftop lounge


the golf courses will be at the 'mercy' of the operations.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 07:34:20 AM »
When are you planning to visit?   Might check my calendar!

March 13th and 14th
And I think we have room as we're just a twosome.

Bill Brightly,

The question, the critical question will be, after your visit, based on your experience, will you return ?

Would I return to Bandon ?    Absolutely, and that's a trek for me.

Jim, all the facilities and amenities are for naught if it's not operationally efficient
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 07:39:18 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 07:42:13 AM »
Patrick:

Why don't you compare Streamsong with Trump International, rather than Bandon?

(Just thought you might like some controversy for your thread.)

Jud_T

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 08:07:52 AM »
Completely irrelevant.  I'm going solely for the hot dog...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 08:12:55 AM »
Patrick:

Why don't you compare Streamsong with Trump International, rather than Bandon?

Tom,

That would be an interesting thread once Trump has both course up and running,
and once both hotels are up and running.

Not having played either, and not having stayed at either, as of today, my gut tells me that Trump would run more efficiently, more user friendly.

Mike Keiser and Trump have a considerable advantage over Streamsong in that they, and they alone, can effect operational policy at their whim, and their considerable experience in golf and with golfers gives them advantage lost in committee meetings amongst executives.

What I'd really want to know is what is Mike Keiser's assessment of the operational efficiency of Streamsong.
And what he would do if he was managing it ?

Do you think he'd turn away Donald Trump and his sons if they wanted to play more golf ?  ;D

If I owned Mosaic, or was the Exec in charge of Streamsong, I would have flown out to Bandon and Chicago and spent a lot of time at Bandon and with Mike Keiser, learning as much as I could on how to run a successful destination golf resort.

I don't think that's very controversial, just good common sense.


(Just thought you might like some controversy for your thread.) [/b][/size][/color]

Michael Moore

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 09:47:48 AM »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jason Thurman

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 10:18:12 AM »
The golf courses are definitely relevant, but probably not the biggest long-term factor for the resort.

I almost went with a fellow GCA'er this month, but decided to hold off. I take one or two "destination" golf trips a year, and I wasn't sure yet that I wanted to spend one on Streamsong. The courses look great, but I'm waiting to hear more about how people rate their experience overall after this initial hype dies down.

In another thread, I mentioned my disappointment with Pinehurst after visiting the resort last fall. I LOVED the town and the golf course and the resort infrastructure. But I was about as annoyed with their pricing model, hidden fees, and poor communication of policies as I've ever been with a business that I've patroned. It will be a long time before I return to the resort, in spite of the fact that it has one of my favorite golf courses. I'd rather pay for a slightly lesser golf course but better overall experience and value. My lukewarm review of Pinehurst won't hurt them: they have a ton of history on their side and they're one of the most recognizable brands in resort golf. Streamsong doesn't have the same history or brand recognition though, so they'll need to make customers very happy to get word-of-mouth advertising and repeat business.

That's the big question for me with Streamsong. It looks like they've nailed the "golf course quality" check box. But there are about 10 other boxes that they need to check if they're going to succeed long term. I hope they pull it off.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 10:37:29 AM »
When are you planning to visit?   Might check my calendar!

March 13th and 14th
And I think we have room as we're just a twosome.


That would be fun but I'm there March 7-9 with Howard's group of 16, leave Sunday the 10th.  Have fun, look forward to your report.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 11:31:31 AM »


Bill,

Sorry I'll miss you.
I think Bill Brightly's group will be there when I'm there.

From everything I've heard, the golf courses are terrific, so I'm sure that we'll enjoy the golf if Mother Nature co-operates.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 11:50:09 AM »
I visited Streamsong yesterday and played both courses. I've also visited Bandon, Barnbougle, Sandhills, and Dismal River... two public & two private remote golf destinations that promote "golf as it was meant to be." So, that is my context.

I don't understand the rationale for the "spa" hotel at Streamsong. No one in their right mind would take their non-golfing spouse to Streamsong for a holiday. There is absolutely nothing to do or see within 2 hours of the place. I think the hotel will be the albatross around their neck. Like the four destinations mentioned above, Streamsong is a place where you go for total golf immersion for three days with a group of friends or business associates. They seem to be gearing up for large business meetings and corporate functions... which explains their pricing policies. I hope the place succeeds... it will be interesting to watch the drama unfold.

As to the golf courses...

The Red is as good as it gets. It compares favorably with the best of C&C's work I've seen:  Sandhills, Friars Head, Lost Farm, and Cuscowilla.

The Blue has me scratching my head. I'm scheduled to play it a few more times in a couple weeks, which I need to sort out what I really think. My first impression is too many bizarre greens, too many uphill holes, too many Strantz-ish treks between holes. Also, I found it to be a very tough walk, but considering the massive fleet of carts on hand this was probably not one of Doak's primary concerns. My core principal is that golf should be fun... I felt more frustration than fun: too often punished for what seemed to be good shots and repeatedly tricked on the greens to the point of feeling like a "Mucci Moron." I'm holding my final opinion until I've toured the course a few times and watched others play it, but on first blush it didn't please me like Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 12:01:14 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Bill_McBride

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 11:55:20 AM »
I visited Streamsong yesterday and played both courses. I've also visited Bandon, Barnbougle, Sandhills, and Dismal River... two public & two private remote golf destinations that promote "golf as it was meant to be." So, that is my context.

I don't understand the rationale for the "spa" hotel at Streamsong. No one in their right mind would take their non-golfing spouse to Streamsong for a holiday. There is absolutely nothing to do or see within 2 hours of the place. I think the hotel will be the albatross around their neck. Like the four destinations mentioned above, Streamsong is a place where you go for total golf immersion for three days with a group of friends or business associates. They seem to be gearing up for large business meetings and corporate functions... which explains their pricing policies. I hope the place succeeds... it will be interesting to watch the drama unfold.

As to the golf courses...

The Red is as good as it gets. It compares favorably with the best of C&C's work I've seen:  Sandhills, Friars Head, Lost Farm, and Cuscowilla.

The Blue has me scratching my head. I'm scheduled to play it a few more times in a couple weeks, which I need to sort out what I really think. My first impression is too many bizarre greens, too many uphill holes, too many Strantz-ish treks between holes. Also, I found it to be a very tough walk, but considering the massive fleet of carts on hand was probably not one of Doak's primary concerns. My core principal is that golf should be fun... I felt more frustration than fun: too often punished for what seemed to be good shots and repeatedly tricked on the greens to the point of feeling like a "Mucci Moron." I'm holding my final opinion until I've toured the course a few times and watched others play it, but I can report it ain't Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.


Michael, FYI, Torquemada is assembling the council of grand inquisitors to commence your enhanced interrogation for the above act of heresy.   ;D

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 11:59:25 AM »
I know, Bill. I march to a different drummer. I just don't find being made to feel like a complete idiot on the greens an entertaining feature.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Eric Smith

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 12:12:26 PM »
too many uphill holes

Has to be the first time in history that this has been written about a golf course in FLORIDA!? ;D

jeffwarne

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 12:13:55 PM »
too many uphill holes

Has to be the first time in history that this has been written about a golf course in FLORIDA!? ;D

I like uphill holes-rather play up then walk up
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Eric Smith

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »
Yeah, think about some of those holes, like 4, 9 (tee to fwy), 13...those are some really great golf holes!

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 12:26:01 PM »
Mike,

Let the inquisition start.   ;)

Which uphill holes were too much; second shot on 4, drive on 9, drive on 11 (modest as it may be), 14 (again modest), 16, second shot on 17, and drive on 18.  Many of these are preceded or followed by downhill shots.

Which greens in particular made you feel like an idiot?  There are certainly greens where you need to be in the right part of them to be reasonably certain of a 2 putt.  Did you have a caddie to advise?  Will you likely do better the next time around?  None of the greens were wild, crazy like the 13th at Barnbougle, but I thought the greens were fun.  I could only laugh and shake my head about some of the putts I left myself with and my misreads.

Did you walk both courses in one day?  Was Blue the second?  It's not an easy walk, but I didn't think it was too tough. Was it any worse than Silloth?  Now, in summer, it'll be a killer walk.

jeffwarne

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 12:34:40 PM »
Yeah, think about some of those holes, like 4, 9 (tee to fwy), 13...those are some really great golf holes!

and 6 was one of my favorite tee shots/holes
To be fair I wasn't crazy about a couple of walks, but those have been addressed on other threads,
That said, the green to tee walks would've been waaay worse if they'd been designed by an architect who didn't embrace the challenge/variety of a few uphill tee shots. Like I said-rather play up then walk up
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 12:58:38 PM »
Which uphill holes were too much; second shot on 4, drive on 9, drive on 11 (modest as it may be), 14 (again modest), 16, second shot on 17, and drive on 18.  Many of these are preceded or followed by downhill shots.

Overall the course played uphill... especially the finishing holes. There is a cumulative effect of the uphill "wear down" of walking the course. Even when the holes don't play uphill you are presented with an uphill trek to the next hole. Downhill or level tee shots are almost always followed by uphill approaches.

Which greens in particular made you feel like an idiot?  There are certainly greens where you need to be in the right part of them to be reasonably certain of a 2 putt.  Did you have a caddie to advise?  Will you likely do better the next time around?  None of the greens were wild, crazy like the 13th at Barnbougle, but I thought the greens were fun.  I could only laugh and shake my head about some of the putts I left myself with and my misreads.

No caddie... just depended on my limited skill which has served me well at 99% of the courses I have played... including several of Doak's other courses. This baffled me as bad as Black Forest.

Did you walk both courses in one day?  Was Blue the second?  It's not an easy walk, but I didn't think it was too tough. Was it any worse than Silloth?  Now, in summer, it'll be a killer walk.

The Blue was the second course of the day and, yes, we walked both. Even so, I still think I would have the same opinion had it been the first course we played... I'll know for sure in a couple of weeks. Silloth was a much easier walk for me... I walked six rounds there and never once felt whipped. Facing the last five holes at the Blue was quite a chore.

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Pete Buczkowski

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 01:06:12 PM »
Michael M - hilarious chart, kudos

Mike - agreed there is a lot more uphill approaches than I initially though once we ran through them. Off the top of my head, greens at 3, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16 are above the fw while only 6, 7, 15, 18 are below.

And while I generally enjoy the Blue greens, they are very tough in the brisk 2-3 club wind we had yesterday. For instance 5 Blue had the pin in the bowl tucked behind the bunker. It was straight downwind and extremely tough to get 'in the bowl'.  After numerous tries of all different angles, we couldn't get the approach putt inside 20 feet.  Probably the right play isto miss the green right and chip up.  That is tough to accept on a 115 yard hole.

Hope you have a full day to defend your opinions ;)

Pat - to answer your question, I think the golf courses are the only way for it to be successful. There are too many Doak 7-8 beach resorts in Florida that the hotel won't draw unless the golf is spectacular. I wish they had built cottages instead, much lower overhead for off peak and preferred by many folders visiting a destination course. The good news is the courses are special
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:10:14 PM by Pete Buczkowski »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 01:33:57 PM »

Mike - agreed there is a lot more uphill approaches than I initially though once we ran through them. Off the top of my head, greens at 3, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16 are above the fw while only 6, 7, 15, 18 are below.

Pat - to answer your question, I think the golf courses are the only way for it to be successful. There are too many Doak 7-8 beach resorts in Florida that the hotel won't draw unless the golf is spectacular. I wish they had built cottages instead, much lower overhead for off peak and preferred by many folders visiting a destination course. The good news is the courses are special

Is this the anti-Nicklaus course?  Most of his holes play downhill.

Pete, could you list those Doak 8's in Florida?

Ben Kodadek

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 02:22:23 PM »
I do agree with Mike that it would be curious proposition to bring a significant other to Bowling Green.   However, downtown Tampa is exactly an hour, not two.   

Pete Buczkowski

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Re: Will the golf courses be irrelevant in determining whether or not
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 02:39:06 PM »

Mike - agreed there is a lot more uphill approaches than I initially though once we ran through them. Off the top of my head, greens at 3, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16 are above the fw while only 6, 7, 15, 18 are below.

Pat - to answer your question, I think the golf courses are the only way for it to be successful. There are too many Doak 7-8 beach resorts in Florida that the hotel won't draw unless the golf is spectacular. I wish they had built cottages instead, much lower overhead for off peak and preferred by many folders visiting a destination course. The good news is the courses are special

Is this the anti-Nicklaus course?  Most of his holes play downhill.

Pete, could you list those Doak 8's in Florida?

I was referring to Fl resorts to appeal to families. My Doak 8+s would be the Breakers, Four Seasons Palm Beach, Disney Yacht/Beach, Ritz Naples, Fountainbleu, etc.That is the competition for convention business in the summer.  Went for a golf analogy, but my point is that there are a ton of good resorts/hotels in Fl with more appealing locations than Streamsong. The edge Streamsong has is the golf is fantastic which can't be said anywhere else in Fl.

Someone asked about Disney Guests and tendencies. Summer is busy but not quite peak. It is driven off school calendars which dont impact golfing junkets as much. Our resorts are 90%+ occupied in summer yet it's the slowest time for the golf courses.

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