[Ronald Montesano]

"For my money, Doak's Beechtree (right down the road) was better, but that's now a moot argument."

and another thread, Mr. Sheridan Park!

[Josh Tarble]

In my opinion it's Harbor Town. It is still such an unique course, even 50 years later. Such an excellent creation and it has stood the test of time as well as any course built.

[Bart Bradley]

Josh:

Seriously, what do you LOVE about Harbor Town?

Do you think Harbor Town is a better design than Kiawah Ocean or Whistling Straits?  How about the Honors?

Bart

[Josh Tarble]

Bart,

I love the low-lying feeling of the course, a totally un-produced feel of the design.  It is laid out really well horizontally, showcasing Pete's standard excellence in use of angles but also the use of trees as hazards to create vertical interest. Then the small greens are the final piece of the puzzle the really requires precise shotmaking. I haven't played the Honors or Kiawah but to me it's almost exactly opposite of Pete's other designs and the epitome of "low-key" (for lack of a better word) design.

I also think Whistling Straits is fantastic and am fine if you would argue that way, but in my opinion it is complete opposite of Harbor Town.  I think Harbor Town showed the possibilities of what was possible on basic sites.

[Joel Zuckerman]

My vote goes to The Honors.

PS----I've played 'em all.

[Tom_Doak]

Long Cove was once ranked 19th in the country, but many great courses have been built since then, as well as a distinct change in tastes by raters.

Jeff:

The odd part about that is that Long Cove is a fairly low-profile course for Mr. Dye, except for the big berm on holes 6-7-8.  So if there is a change is tastes toward lower-profile courses, you'd think that it would do BETTER in the rankings these days.  Instead, Whistling Straits keeps moving up the rankings, relative to his other courses.

By the same token, The Golf Club seems to be gaining status these days, and it would also be one of Pete's more minimalist designs.

[Jim Sherma]

Long Cove was once ranked 19th in the country, but many great courses have been built since then, as well as a distinct change in tastes by raters.

Jeff:

The odd part about that is that Long Cove is a fairly low-profile course for Mr. Dye, except for the big berm on holes 6-7-8.  So if there is a change is tastes toward lower-profile courses, you'd think that it would do BETTER in the rankings these days.  Instead, Whistling Straits keeps moving up the rankings, relative to his other courses.

By the same token, The Golf Club seems to be gaining status these days, and it would also be one of Pete's more minimalist designs.

There is no "blind tasting" in golf. Hosting significant tournaments, with majors as the creme de la creme, will always boost a course's ranking. There is a reason that counterfeit wine is such a successful scam. No one wants to admit that the herd is wrong, and few have the cajones and knowledge to say that the emperor wears no, or few, clothes.

[Ronald Montesano]

There is no "blind tasting" in golf.

NOT ASKING FOR IT. I ASKED FOR OPINION SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE.

Hosting significant tournaments, with majors as the creme de la creme, will always boost a course's ranking.

EXCEPT ON THIS SITE.

There is a reason that counterfeit wine is such a successful scam.

HOW DOES THIS ANALOGY CONNECT WITH THIS THREAD?

No one wants to admit that the herd is wrong, and few have the cajones and knowledge to say that the emperor wears no, or few, clothes.

CAJONES MEANS DRAWERS IN SPANISH. COJONES MEANS EGGS, NUTS, BALLS, MARBLES...

[Jim Sherma]

There is no "blind tasting" in golf.

NOT ASKING FOR IT. I ASKED FOR OPINION SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE.

Hosting significant tournaments, with majors as the creme de la creme, will always boost a course's ranking.

EXCEPT ON THIS SITE.

There is a reason that counterfeit wine is such a successful scam.

HOW DOES THIS ANALOGY CONNECT WITH THIS THREAD?

No one wants to admit that the herd is wrong, and few have the cajones and knowledge to say that the emperor wears no, or few, clothes.

CAJONES MEANS DRAWERS IN SPANISH. COJONES MEANS EGGS, NUTS, BALLS, MARBLES...

In order -

1 and 2 - my comment was in reference to Doak's that discussed different courses in reference to "rankings" and not this site's generalized truths.

3 - this was in reference to the earlier statement that there are no blind tastings in golf. If you have access to a great club. And you know and respect the history and pedigree. The odds of an off point review drops dramatically. As a statistician who drinks and is a wine-geek I can say that I have read of a long history of evidence that demonstrates this with non-blind tastings within the wine world. True double-blind tastings consistently result in different relative rankings of a set of wines, usually to the detriment of the "high-end name" wines.

4 - my wife is the Spanish teacher. I am the drunk geek golfer and my spelling is not great in English, let alone Spanish. I would hazard a guess that most knew what I meant.

[mike_beene]

What is in the space where the old runway was at Teeth? If the back nine were as good as the front nine at Oak Tree it might come close to Teeth; but it wouldn't get there.

[Ronald Montesano]

These courses, in no particular order (and if I read correctly) have been proposed and solidly supported to date...

Oak Tree
Teeth of the Dog
Whistling Straits
The Honors Course
The Golf Club
Harbor Town
Long Cove
Pete Dye Golf Club
Kiawah Ocean

Are there others?

[Jim_Coleman]

Mike:  Big homes with views of #'s 15-17 and the sea beyond.

[Joel Zuckerman]

There are some people who like Blackwolf Run as much or more than Whistling Straits.

Using the 10 round breakdown, I would probably be inclined myself to go five and five on those two courses...

[Matt Kardash]

What I find interesting that there is this belief that Dye's best work was in the 60s and 70s, however when you look at most courses listed they are post 1980. Honestly, when you look at it objectively it seems like the 1970s was his least productive decade in terms of producing outstanding courses. Only Teeth of the Dog and Oak Tree were a product of the 70s. Did Dye not get many good sites between Teeth in 1971 and Sawgrass (which is obbiously a terrible site but a great course) in 1980?

[Ted Sturges]

My favorites are:

1.  The Golf Club
2.  The Ocean Course
3.  TPC Sawgrass
4.  Harbour Town
5.  Crooked Stick (version I played as a teenager in 1977)


Least favorites:

1.  French Lick (only course I've ever played that I was concerned I might "fall off of"...shocked this course came off as it did...it this the culmination of a 50 year career in the design field?...if so, not sure what it says about the evolution of the architect)
2.  Whistling Straits (a links course with multiple forced carries?...also, not a fan of the "curtains" hiding the cornfields on the front nine)

TS

[John Shimp]

For wild, hard, interesting, scenic, and well maintained Dye Colleton River is really strong.

[jeffwarne]

For wild, hard, interesting, scenic, and well maintained Dye Colleton River is really strong.

+1
My second favorite Dye Course

[Sven Nilsen]

An old thread on the subject:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12465.0.html

Some interesting names provided their lists.

[Matt Kardash]

For wild, hard, intereesting, scenic, and well maintained Dye Colleton River is really strong.

+1
My second favorite Dye Course

The Dye course at Colleton has always intrigued me because I really do get the sense that it may be THE hidden gem in his catalog. From pics I have seen as well as the aerial from google Earth I get the feeling that there is a lot to like about this course. I remember Tim Liddy saying he thought it was in Dye's top 5, and Ron Whitten wrote that it was better than Long Cove.

[Tim Leahy]

No love for the Stadium Course at PGA West? It is not a pretty course but the architecture that went into it was pretty great at the time and seemed to be coppied alot other places.

[Michael George]

Sven:

Great link.  Thanks.

I really have to play Whistling Straits.  I am not sure there is a greater disconnect between the general public perception of a course and what is stated on this site than this course.  I talk to non-gca golfers and they talk in Bandon terms.  I talk to gca guys and they don't think it is top 50 in the US.  Is it the fact that it is not a true links or something else?

[Tim Leahy]

No love for the Stadium Course at PGA West? It is not a pretty course but the architecture that went into it was pretty great at the time and seemed to be coppied at alot of other places.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

Great link.  Thanks.

I really have to play Whistling Straits.  I am not sure there is a greater disconnect between the general public perception of a course and what is stated on this site than this course.  I talk to non-gca golfers and they talk in Bandon terms.  I talk to gca guys and they don't think it is top 50 in the US.  Is it the fact that it is not a true links or something else?

Michael:

I think there's more to it than just the land that was used.  It has brilliant moments, but at the same time has some real head-scratchers.

If anything, I think it falls victim to our changing attitudes regarding the construction of courses.  There was a time when most looked at what Pete did in Kohler with a sense of wonderment.  Now we just see the bulldozers and hand-planted rough.

Its not high on my list of fun courses, but it is something worth seeing.

Sven

[Greg Tallman]

Given the comments about Whistling Straits and those on Mucci's Rees/Streamsong topic... I say Mosaic gives Pete A tract of land and the heavy equipment to create whatever he can and see how it compares to the Red and blue courses. WHat would be the difference?

I am sure Mosaic introduced some of the initial vegetation and thus it was "hand planted"...
 

[Sven Nilsen]

What if the 7th at SS Blue had been built by Pete Dye?

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