[NAF]

Between my office and listening to the usual uninformed opinions by members in my pro shop or on the range the last 2 days I am convinced from this small sample that the average American just doesnt get golf in England.  Over the last few days I have heard how ugly people think Sandwich is and how awful it must be to play being so brown and mottled and how those bunkers look terrible.  Furthermore it is so unfair I keep hearing about how the pros can't use the aerial game and use darts sucked with backspin to get close to the pin.

Whenever I have asked people if they have ever been to the Kent coast, an eyebrow usually gets raised and they ask where is that?  Then I ask, have you ever played Sandwich?  They always respond, "no".  But then these are the same people who won't play when a wind is more than 15 mph and the same people who think tree canopies that interfere with play are part of the designer's intent.

I guess people won't ever realize that English golf is the finest on earth.  Jim Finegan aside, I know there won't be many Americans discovering the joys of Sandwich, Deal, Rye, West Sussex, St. Enodoc, Pennard, Porthcawl, Ganton, Woodhall Spa, Brancaster, Hunstanton, all of the heathlands and the many other gems I have not listed.  And I say what a pity and what good fortune.  It is nice to always hear when I play in the England that we don't get many Americans around here often.  I guess some Americans will never learn.  Scott Hoch's wisdom wins over here although not in this forum.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is hard to give a positive response to anything which Scot Hoch is given credit for. I would rather play in Scotland given the choice, but anybody who loves links golf will love Royal St. Georges and the many other great English seaside courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF,

As I was driving to play golf this morning, I was listening to a sports channel on the radio. On WFAN, the sports host was saying that the American golfers aren't used to those terrible brown conditions, the lack of trees to assist them with alignment and all of that funny looking grass.

I had my hands full just trying to keep my car on the road as I listened to his longing for green fairways, tree lined fairways and short rough.  I was experiencing a different type of road rage.

Sadly, most of his audience probably thought that this is how golf courses should and shouldn't play.

I intend on playing tomorrow morning, and will be on the phone as soon as my car leaves the driveway.

Remember too, that GREEN golf courses cover up many problems.

[Evan Fleisher]

NAF'r...amen brother!

Although I have not had the joy of playing over in England, I have made a Scotland pilgrimage in my lifetime and agree with your points completely.

You are correct that it is both a pity and a stroke of good fortune that most american golfer just don't "get it".  Even when it comes to the variety of courses here in the states, if it doesn't have beautiful lush green conditions, plenty of trees, a cart girl, etc. the course is just not up to snuff.  Give me variety, challenge, a ground game choice, an array of dazzling colors and shades of green, brown, whatever...and let us at it.

[Holyhead_ferry_1]

Well guy's I'm watching the British Open on a golf course I have played a few times and as you say "You Yanks don't get it".

I'm doing a remodel in Rhode Ilsand at the minute and on thursday I was at the club to do a presentation. While in the Bar, the Big screen TV had the golf on and the comments on the state of the golf course and why Tiger couldn't stop a ball on the greens was just hillarious, some of the comments where from MARS. Grown men coming up with and out with comments on playing golf that they know nothing about. The sad thing is their golf course was designed by an English man who incorporated the features they where commenting on on their own course.

The Sad thing is here in the States courses are conditioned to be soft and green all the time. If they could see Newport CC in RI which is up the road from Warwick,the only things that are watered are the greens and tees. The fairways at the request of the members remaing dry. One of the sites of Tigers Amateur Championships, which if you gents recall in the final the challenger to Tiger gave a good account of himself as the course became the great equaliser in taming Tigers length. So the order of the day was old fashioned Bump and run golf as it should be.
Well guy's enjoy the TV this week, I am and watching the top guy's having to play and manufacture golf shots to beat the course, May be the USGA should take a leaf out of the R&A's book and set up Shinnacock next year as 'the Open' is this week water the Tees and Greens and leave the fairways, I hope David Faye  reads this or some one from the USGA championship committee.
regards
Ian

[Bill_McBride]

One American who gets it is Tom Watson, who was interviewed after his round at Royal St George and said, loosely paraphrased, "This is links golf at its purest."  I do think the fairways should be 40 yds wide instead of 20 so the erratic bounces off the camelbacked fairways might have some chance to stay on short grass!  I think Tom was saying the same thing, but it surely was equal for all players over four rounds.  The bunkers on #4 are probably the most beautiful fairway bunkers I've ever seen.  Is anybody aware of anything remotely similar on U.S. soil?  (Other than the dune/mountains at Cypress Point?)

[Steve Lang]

 
Its a pity, mostly , but please don't use such a wide brush to paint all americans as not getting it! After all, there's only and hour or two drive from any part of GB&I to the sea, and the Town & Country Planning authoritites aren't exactly tripping  over themselves creating new inland courses.. links land it will mostly be.. the style of play is still only one style of play.

After years of watching on TV, it took me two holes at TOC to truly get it.. (but the guys from NY & NJ never did!) but it, in the endreally only reminded me of muni golf in my youth,.. when hard and fast was a result of City budgets and the weather more than conscious intent..

I loved Ganton , probably as much by the playing companionship when I played there, as the course's true challenge, but I think most would get it, if they were properly exposed to it.

But in the end, I'll maintain it is only one style of play!  Where you roll the dice almost every shot!

Regards  

[TEPaul]

Thankfully the few comments I heard about RSG's at my club were positive--the remarks I heard were from those who thought the course looked cool in the finest sense of linksland style golf.

But in fairness to Americans, particularly thinking ones, many of the styles of golf courses in this country are anything but the linksland style. Certainly this doesn't mean that the more prevalent "inland" and "parkland" styles one finds in America should be soft and lush and over-irrigated but "inland" and "parkland" golf courses were never supposed to look and play identical to the classic linksland style golf course that we're seeing in this British Open!

A website like this one should be well aware of the distinctions in the styles of golf architecture. Golf courses generally play best firm and fast but to advocate that "inland" and "parkland" style courses look and play identical to RSG is to basically paint all architecture with a "one type fits all" mentality at the other end of the spectrum!

[Evan Fleisher]

Tom,

In regards to your last paragraph...I don't think we are asking or advocating that stance at all.  Rather, I would like to see more American golfers simply understand and/or appreciate a course designed in another fashion that our typical inland or parkland style of layout and play.

Firm and fast conditions can be okay, a ground game can be okay, BROWN can be okay...and it doesn't have to be on every course...but those that are deisigned with those characteristics inteded should be appreciated for such.

As an example...we have a public course here just West of Dubuque called The Meadows and is designed in a "prairie links" style as I like to call it...gently rolling/hilly terrain, devoid of most trees, tall native grasses lining the fairways, plenty of run-up opportunities, and (somewhat) undulating greens.  I have a lot of folks tell me they are not too fond of the course becuase of the way it plays, and guess what...it does NOT play like the typical "target golf" courses we Americans have become so used to.  I personally like to get out there for just to opposite reason...you have to actually THINK your way around the course!  Wide fairways and no treees does not necessarily make a course easy!  You've got to hit it to the correct part of the fairways, and maybe (god-forbid!!) even play your approach shot along the (gasp!) ground!

There are plenty of courses that already play in a "typical" American style of golf...and that does not need to change.  But simply give these other designs (and designers) their due when they produce something out of the ordinary, special, and/or unique.  We will all be better off for it.

[George Pazin]

It doesn't help when the geniuses on The Golf Channel choose to criticise the very things that make The Open and links golf great.

They need to get someone who truly appreciates this style to do commentary.

[Matt Kardash]

I love how some of the announcers, players and most people in general refer to american tree-lined golf as "traditional" golf. If American golf is traditional golf then what is British golf?

[Chris Perry]

I don't think it is fair to say either one is "better" than the other, they are just different experiences which is what makes golf such a great game IMO. Variety is the spice of life.

Personally I love it when the wind rolls fescue in waves, having it done on a parkland course makes it even better because you get a little of both worlds. I've also said to myself if I had a chance to make a 36 hole complex (not by the coast) one 18 would be hilly and wooded, and the other would be open, flat and undulating, just for the variety it would give you on a days worth of playing.

As for the bunkers on 4, I wonder if the lie and stance in there would be just as menacing if they were just left as mounds with deep fescue on them? Either way I don't think advancing the ball to the green would be an option, though you can pick a ball cleaner out of the sand than the long stuff one would think.

[TEPaul]

Evan Fleisher:

Very fine points about different styles. I agree, I hate to see American announcers at the British Open at RSG fail to understand the way a links style course is meant to be played as much as I hate to see an American style course that was designed to play as yours was altered either. I like that term "prairie links". God knows that style can play as interesting as the European links style if maintained hard and fast with the unfettered wind without the trees.

I suppose all I was saying is anyone should try to understand how courses were designed and maintain them that way. And there sure are differences in original styles all over the world obviously requiring different maintenance practices.

Part of my idea about the "ideal maintenance meld" at any golf course is to first understand what kind of playable conditions ANY course was designed to play best with and maintain the course that way. The point is there can be vast differences both in style and ideal maintenance practices.

[A_Clay_Man]

Certainly there is no a less a challenge when a course plays contrary to it's "meld". Proabably more? One cannot always control all the conditions. Perhaps this why I like courses during their transition phases. A bit frustrating, but again, no less a challenge, for which if I'm aware enough, can be overcome.

Now, turn to your song books to page 69.... We shall

[Holyhead_ferry_1]

Yes is the answer there is a course where the bunkers are similar.

I designed a golf course in Maryland called Hunters Oak, go to
www.huntersoak.com It's worth a trip for anyone. I'd love to hear what you guy's think of a real links course, greens and all.

It is was my first effort in the States, thanks to a good friend of mine TommySasser ex of Golden Bear inc.

I had a lot of fun doing it, and a lot of nice comments after.

when you get to Maryland give it a shot and I'll read  your comments with anticipation.
Regards
Ian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Noel,

My cousin Joan, the other night, asked me why on earth I loved golf in St. Andrews so much, because it was so brown and unlike Augusta National, all whilst looking at one of the three St. Andrews books that are on my coffee table, and I sent out a shreek of pain.

At this very moment, we are not on the best of terms. I'm not joking either!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian,

You couldn't have designed this course. It says that its a Gary Player design. What's up with that?  

O.K. maybe I can see now more then ever why your frustrated! I don't blame you one bit! But do tell us, how may site visits did Gary actually make, and did you have to show him which way it was to the first tee?

Did he land a helicopter on site at the ground breaking, hop out and announce that it was the greatest plot of land he has seen for a golf course?

[Holyhead_ferry_1]

Tommy
It's documented in the Baltimore Sun, Washington Golf Monthly and a few other magazines Golf World and Golf Digest journalist Ron Whitten documented it. Besides the reason for the effort on the new owners part is well documented in the Centerville County  Court house and to which they settled out of court for a considerable sum of money, hence the impication is given that Gary Player designed the course, they are on thin ice and they know it.

Hunters Oak is an Ian Scott-Taylor Design not Gary Player and I have a court paper to prove it.
Regards
Ian  

[Marty Bonnar]

NAF
Do you mean England OR Greater England OR The United Kingdom OR Britain OR The British Isles OR That bit of Europe not really joined on to the rest? I speak as a completely unbiased Scotsman you understand!!

Hey Ian
What's with the nom-de-plume?
Is it the old joke about 'What's the best thing to ever come out of Liverpool???"
Like it though!!

FBD.

[Holyhead_ferry_1]

FBD
What is the best thing to come out of Liverpool ? Blue Funnel, The North Wales Navy, thanks for reminding me, I just forgot, coming from North Wales and being here in America one forgets(getting old you know).
Regards
Ian

[Marty Bonnar]

Ian
Cheers - and hope you're not getting TOO sentimental about the OLD Country!!!

We certainly can't discount The Fab Four, can we!?!?!?

Anyhow, hope you're having great fun practicing GCA in the States. Maybe joining you soon - depends on where the work appears!! (I'm one of the guys just completing the MSc at Heriot Watt). Looks like most work might be in the East (near and far!!!)

FBD.

[Chris Perry]

The website says a second parkland 18 will be designed by Gary Player.

[Forrest Richardson]

Americans don't get British Isles design. Yes. And, what do you suppose the Brits think when they come here and see Bandon? Do they say, "wow", it's just like our courses. Fantastic!...Or, do they have the same opinion as we (purists) might have if visiting an English club which adopted an Ameirican style?

[Darren_Kilfara]

Forrest, I've talked with a lot of Scots who have gone to America on holiday (usually Florida), played some golf and really enjoyed the experience - because it was different to what they were used to. They loved the lush conditions, probably in exactly the same sense that many Americans touring Scotland enjoy links golf for the novelty factor of it (but perhaps "don't get it", as Noel says). In that sense, to say that it's AMERICANS who "don't get it" may in part miss the point - it's golfers of all nationalities who "don't get it". More Britons may be used to hard-and-fast turf conditions and thereby do understand the glories of links golf, but by no means all of them prefer links golf instinctively to lush, American-style golf.

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

Darren

I agree completely with your observations.  The grass is always greener (or browner, as the case may be....) on the other side of the road (or pond).........

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