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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another thread discussed why certain flaws such as crossovers were acceptable at some courses but shamed or frowned upon at others.  It made me ponder how many great golf courses exist where we can't see more than the hole we are playing.  I don't think there are many and maybe only a handful if that.  Most all discussions of great courses revolve around the great holes and not the great WHOLE.  All these threads trying compare Streamsong Red to Streamsong Blue confuse the hell out of me.  I don't think that much, but I do know I enjoyed just standing on the tees, walking the fairways and putting the greens because of the surroundings as much as anything yet we never admit that.  Now that is not to say that strategy and design within the individual holes is not critical.  It is.  Because without such you have a not so great golf course where you can see more than the hole you are playing.  Most communities have one or two and people love them.  The concept of designing courses with homes down each side of a golf hole was a bad concept and will be with us for years to come.  I don't think we will ever see that done again.  Perimeter housing , yes.

But back to my question.  I can think of one immediately and some here may not consider it great.  And it may not be but I do consider it exceptional.  The Heather at Boyne Highlands.   Others?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

I think that was an underlying theme at Pine Valley initially, and they make as good an attempt as any walking course I can imagine...but...I hate the concept. I love seeing and hearing other people on the course.

Maybe my bedroom was too dark as a kid...

Oh wait, the bullying thread is over there, sorry.

Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

Pine Valley comes close

Sand Hills sometimes has that flavor

It would seem that a heavily forested course or a course with tremendous land available would be candidates for total isolation

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's a long time since I played there, but is this not often the case at Sunningdale (Old)?

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don't you think part of a really great course are the vistas??  NGLA comes to mind, the views there are wonderful. Seeing the windmill from differing spots on the course, IMHO, adds to the enjoyment in playing the course. Seeing Shinny is cool too.

I hate to add Merion but standing on two and looking out adds to the experience. You get too see all that is to come.

Finally is there a better viewing experience than TOC??  Looking back into the town from the back nine still gives me goosebumps.

We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike:

I know you've played Grandfather...and it is certainly not true in the absolute strictest sense.  As a very walkable course it comes fairly close.

Grandfather's founder, Agnes Mcrae, wanted the holes to be isolated from each other....

Bart

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
That idea of "not ever being able to see a hole other than the one you were playing" was NOT an intended theme of either Pine Valley or Sunningdale ... when they were built the vegetation was much different, and it's only once all the trees grew up that it became true.  I am pretty sure the phrase was just the idea of a golf writer trying to explain what made Pine Valley different, many years later ... but it caused a bunch of modern courses to try and mimic the same "classic" concept that never was.

I have built a lot of projects in very large surroundings, but I still prefer to have at least a couple of places where the holes come together and you can see another hole.  That moment when you see the 13th at Pacific Dunes off the back of the 3rd green is probably the best view on the whole course; likewise, the view when you crest the hill on the 3rd at Old Macdonald.  Rock Creek is laid out in a big long loop, but the best spot on the course is probably where #11 doubles back on #10.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maybe, maybe not Tom. They documented thousands of trees being planted at Pine Valley very early on. The idea of "holding the course togther" can only count for so many of them.

As an absoute, I agree it is not, but I think the intent for isolation was there. The loop of 6 - 9 is the only place with holes relatively close to each other and even they have 50 or more yards between.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Maybe, maybe not Tom. They documented thousands of trees being planted at Pine Valley very early on. The idea of "holding the course togther" can only count for so many of them.

As an absoute, I agree it is not, but I think the intent for isolation was there. The loop of 6 - 9 is the only place with holes relatively close to each other and even they have 50 or more yards between.

Jim:

That could be.  I should have said the courses didn't start that way, not that they weren't intended to be that way.  I don't really know the intent of either Crump or Willie Park.  By the same token, I don't remember any architect ever writing about trying to isolate each of the holes in any of the classic books on golf architecture.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sunny Old definitely has spots where interior views can be had and there are a few more areas which could be cleared out.  I wonder what the view is like playing the 14th and looking left toward the house?  There also may be a lovely view from the 16th & 17th looking at The New holes.  

Huntercombe is pretty isolated, but I think this is very much to the detriment of the design and ambience of the course.  

In a strange sort of way, Cleeve Cloud, while about as open as a course can be, seems to hide other holes quite well.  There aren't many visual clues to signal golf is there or here.  I suspect a lack of bunkers and fairway definition helps keep that unique aesthetic.    

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Agreed Tom...PV is tough in that Crump died before the course itself was complete and he didn't write anything himself, his friends did.

I seem to recall something to this effect in one of those long threads a few years ago but am not going looking.

I expect TEP will email information if/when he sees this thread.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
It has been years since I have been there, but I recall the holes at Highland Links on Cape Breton being very isolated from each other.

Patrick_Mucci

Jim,

Massive tree clearing occurred at inception, then massive tree planting occurred after completion.

But stabilization only applies to certain areas like behind # 9 green, and even on that slope not many trees were planted due to the severity of that slope

You're correct that Crump didn't leave much in the way of written records, so it's hard to determine his true intent

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's not 100% hole isolation but Cacsacta in Las Vegas is what you describe. 

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Adjacent holes at Royal Birkdale are largely concealed from one another. Obviously there are wide views from some of the elevated tees.

Many holes at Royal County Down are isolated in their own valley between the dunes, which makes it all the more spectacular when you break out onto the higher ground and see a lot of the course laid out in front of you with the Mourne Mountains and Dundrum Bay forming a splendid background.

I'm sure many of you would say that Wentworth West isn't a great course, but, again, most holes are isolated either in a corridor of trees or an estate of vast houses.


Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eindhovensche (Colt) in Holland is on 300 acres, and one cannot see one hole from any other hole

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
It has been years since I have been there, but I recall the holes at Highland Links on Cape Breton being very isolated from each other.

Yes, the majority of holes would appear to be like this at Highland Links. To me the par 5 7th and 15th really stand out in this regard although there are numerous others as well.
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nice topic Mike because this concept is certainly not one of my favourites and I don't understand it when some courses use it as a sales card....

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps my memory is flawed, but I remember a fair amount of isolation at Woking. Google Earth Woking and it actually looks like there are several courses like that in the area.

I wouldn't call it my favorite concept, but occasionally it might be ok.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 12:21:42 AM by Tim_Weiman »
Tim Weiman

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Crumpin-Fox, just south of the Vermont border in Bernardston, Massachusetts is a golf course that is quite isolated, one hole to the next. There are a couple of exceptions to the rule, where you see the next hole from the fairway prior, but generally speaking you see only the hole you are currently playing.

Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
A few courses/portions of courses have sold me on the importance of unity in GCA. 

1) Shinnecock Hills - The unity of the course (without sacrificing scale) is astonishing and makes the whole far more than the sum of the parts (which are themselves great)

2) front 9 at Crystal Downs - Yes the holes are great (and many of them unique), the unity and views makes it over-the-top great

3) TOC - where the connectivity actually enhances the strategic options

I will say, however, that I do not at all mind moments of seclusion on a golf course.  There are many clositered holes at The Machrie, Lahinch, and many other great courses, but the general sense of place is not lost at those courses (in my opinion). 

What about Oakmont?  How much better is Oakmont now (conditioning aside) without any tress isolating any of the holes?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Trump Scotland is very, very close. Only if you go to tips do some other holes appear.

Boston Golf Club, I believe, may be another.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:14:00 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Nick Schaan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Unless it is a natural occurance (landform, vegetation, etc.) that creates the separation, isolated holes tend to future topagraphy and landscape that fails to flow or tie into their surroundings.

I can think of numerous times at Sunningdale last summer where you see other holes. In some cases you have to cross other holes from green to tee.

I think the intermitent openess  of a golf course is key. Tom mentioned the 3rd/13 at Pacific Dunes; a similar scenario occurs on 4 at Bandon Dunes. The experience from the landing area as you turn toward the green, and on as you walk to the green and look up 5, and on to 13 at Pacific and South to 12, 15, 16 and Bandon. for people who visit the first time, this is where their experience goes from "cool", to "awsome"!

Great landscape design, think Central Park and the like, is all about moving people through different spaces without people consiously knowing it. With golf design, the great golf courses do the same, sometimes with individual holes, a sequence of holes, or even with parts of holes.

Interesting reading this being on site at our project in South Korea. We have faced many "Rules" or "Preferences" here, that we have been trying hard to break or pursuade otherwise. It seems as though in Korea they tend to prefer or think of golf holes like individual rooms. They like to use large transplanted trees to make "curtains" rather than clustering trees in semi random yet appropriate locations that break up holes and areas of the golf course and preserve views and vistas from one hole to another and accross the greater landscape. After hearing members of the design and construction team talk about the open floorplans for their clubhouse and villas, I have adopted the phrase "open floor plan" for use on the golf course.

The great architects wither embraced the elements of their sites that created this scenario, or were able to manufacture it without it being painfully obvious.


Sam Morrow

Shadow Creek?

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Until it reached adolescence Royal New Kent fit the bill. The front is still mostly secluded but of course the back has been recently butchered.

The combination of huge expanse and isolation gives the front nine a special feel. If you happen to be out there alone late in the day as the sun starts to fade there's a bit of a mystical feel...or maybe that's just my strange Strantz affection kicking in...

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