Unfair holes - The 5th at Bandon Dunes ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the 5th hole at Bandon Dunes unfair, due to the clumbs of gunk that are in the middle of the fairway on a hole that requires carry, precision and length just to place the golfer in position to reach the green in regulation ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

NO!

One of the best holes at Bandon Dunes, but one really needs to play the 5th in differing winds from winter, spring, summer & fall to really be able to tell just how good it is. I like that hallway that leads to the green and then the fairly large oval green with natural bunkering on both sides.  There are lots of ways to play the hole, and that too makes it that much more fun.

[peter_p]

No more so than if they were bunkeys. For me in the summer wind its driver-driver and in the winter wind driver wedge. I don't play back tees. The clumbs are much easier to bounce through and equal in wedging out. The hole is a lot easier with the left side brush cleared out from 150 and in. The more you try to avoid the clumps the bigger danger of going onto the right hillside and its gorse.

[Eric Pevoto]

Who ever said you had to hit a green in regulation?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

NO WAY is it unfair...in fact, it's brilliant.

Reaching the proper area on the left side of the "gunk" requires the perfect combination of precision, power, nerve, and wind conditions, but a successful endeavor opens up the entire target area for the approach.

The easier (and more visible) drive to the right-side leaves a semi-blind, longer, and awkward approach over the corner of the dunes.

I'm beginning to think that almost all of my favorite holes have strategies where the line of instinct is impeded by the type of danger inherent in the 5th at Bandon.  

The only thing that's unfair (and un-fun) is when there are no choices for different levels of player or circumstance...only dictation.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

But,

Doesn't a near perfect drive become a lost ball.  An excessive penalty, creating an unfair situation ?

And, on the slim chance that it's not lost, a near perfect drive becomes unplayable.  An excessive penalty ?

If the clumps of gunk were bunkers, avoiding lost balls and unplayable lies, wouldn't it be a better hole, while at the same time speeding up play ?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Pat - have you played #5 recently?  As is said in some of the above posts, it has been cleaned up and is less harsh now.  The gunk you speak of is now a tiny spot of bushes.  

Have you ever played it downwind?  A drive can be blown over the gunk leaving you only a mid or even shorter iron in.

As usual the Cirba-man is right on.  The hole could use a larger variety of tees.

JC

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm always suspicious about any golfer who use the "unfair" tag.

Somehow this implies some standard, some stick, like a carry-on baggage size restrictor. Perfect is relative term and is somehow not applicable if'n you've found some bush, bunker or tree.  And once that golfer has made this unfair pronoucement, it's amazing how poorly they can play a hole.

In other past threads on this subject I do believe it was cooncluded that the only thing unfair in golf is the 14th hole at Pebble Beach with a right center middle pin, (middle of buried elephant) with a stimp over 11. I was actually thinking about this yesterday and while I still don't consider that pin position unfair, I wondered if those that do, had had an experience where they were above the hole and failed to aim 70-85 degrees away from the hole, to the opposite side (houses side) of the green than most would think. ? ?

[JohnV]

Having played #5 in all sorts of winds, I don't think it is unfair, just hard.  There is plenty of room to hit it out to the right of those bushes if you can't carry them.  It probably makes it impossible to get to the green in two, but that is the price to pay.  I played it Driver-9 iron over the bushes from the back tee one day, Driver-2-iron the next and Driver, layup, punch 7 from 120 yards the next just due to wind changes.  In all cases I didn't think it was unfair.

They did remove the last set of bushes in the middle shortly after opening, making the carry a little easier, but I don't see any reason to do more.  The only problem with the hole is that some people don't understand when to layup and hit it in the gunk short/around the green and waste a lot of time looking for the ball which slows up play.  Four and 5 are the real pace-of-play killers at Bandon in my mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Into the wind both days, I hit:
driver, 2-iron to six feet for birdie,  pin all the way back
driver, 3-iron to 15 feet for par, pin all the way back.

So my comments are not based on my personal results.

No prudent golfer would aim far left or far right on the tee shot on # 5, and with an unplayable lie or lost ball the result of a good tee shot down the middle, one could make a case that the gunk in the middle of the fairway is unfair.
A lost ball penalty is excessive and an unfair result of a near perfect tee shot, and it slows up play because the golfer must trek back to the tee to reload.

John V,

What's your definition of plenty of room, 20 yards flanked by thick gorse ?

I don't mind hard holes, but, I think the gunk feature is unfair,
and I'm better prepared to deal with the problem then most.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

5 may be the best or at he least one of the 5 best holes at Bandon dunes. The hole is superb into either wind. I do wish there was a little more space on the left side of the dunes for the into wind play. the 2nd shot is one of the best on the course.

[Matthew Schulte]

Pat:  I think everyone on this site would advocate the more options the better.  Does this hole not present a multitude of options from the tee?  Don't options force the golfer to consider how much risk he is willing to take against how great the reward, and lastly against how much margin for error he will need based on his skill level?  

The hazard is what it is!  You know the consequences as you can see the hazard from the tee.  You are not forced to play over that line.  You may choose to go left, if you believe the reward is worth the risk (you don't).  You may choose to go right with a driver and try to play a draw.  You may choose to take a long iron and go right, eliminating the possibility of going through the fairway on the right.  Perhaps the best way to make a 4 is to lay up short of the "hallway" with your second.  

To quote Tom Doak, "Difficul hazards, which the golfer may label penal, are the essence of interesting golf, and nowhere more so than in the strategic school, where there ought to be a distict penalty for the golfer who has failed to heed the hazard after being given plenty of room to do so."

That said, the ONLY way you could call hole number 5 and Bandon unfair, would be if the ONLY possible option off the tee, to put your ball in play, was to go OVER the junk in the middle of the fairway.  It is not the only option.  Therefore, there are many, many ways to play the hole, and many ways to make a four on the hole.

Perhaps you should not only reconsider your definition of unfair, but also your Pacific to Bandon play ratio as Bandon is also a gem.

[Patrick_Mucci]

M Schulte,

Options are sometimes overrated, or overstated.

One can always hit a sand wedge off of a tee, but that's not a realistic option.

I think you have to look at options through the eyes of a prudent golfer, attempting to make par or better, but willing to accept a bogie*.  (*adjusted for handicap)

I don't think that you can look at options in the context of ignoring the golfers attempt to shoot the lowest possible score on the hole, with par or better a consideration*.

My recollection was that there wasn't much in the way of room to the left, and that there wasn't much in the way of room to the right, especially when you consider what lies beyond the fairway, left and right...... dire consequences.

A lost ball, in the middle of the fairway seems excessive and unfair.

I think the hole would be better if it was a bunker or unkempt dune area, but a stroke and distance penalty for a near perfect drive, in the MIDDLE of the fairway, seems excessive.

The absurd idea that nothing in golf can be unfair usually comes from people who have never played in a competition.

Put the pin on the ridge on # 1 or # 12 at NGLA and let the greens putt at 13 on the stimp, and we'll see what the nothing is unfair crowd have to say about golfers six+ putting or just picking up after realizing that if they don't hole the putt, they'll have a 15 footer coming back, time and time again.

I love Bandon Dunes, especially the wide fairways and greens, but I have to question the placement of gunk and underbrush right in the middle of the fairway, where it can cause lost balls or unplayable lies.

[JohnV]

Patrick, I haven't paced it off lately (at least not since we did the Course Rating in 1998), but I believe it is more than 20 yards for the area where the average hitter is hitting it.  Given the usual winds and the ability of most golfer to hit a straight shot, I think that just aiming it at the bushes in the center of the fairway and letting their swing and the wind do its thing would probably put them in the right hand fairway.  Also, I believe they've cleared a lot of the gorse on the right now so you can find your ball over there if it does go too far right.  It wasn't like that in 1998.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

I'm looking at a photo of the hole and driving zone now, and I'd have to disagree on the amount of room, especially into the wind which exagerates errant shots.

Compare the width of the fairways of the other holes at Bandon Dunes to the 5th, and then take a look at what lies left of the fairway on # 5, right of the fairway on # 5, and dead in the middle of the fairway on # 5.

Hitting a near perfect drive in the middle of the fairway resulting in a lost ball seems excessive, if not unfair.

Committees make mistakes and create unfair conditions.

As an example, when the MET OPEN was played at Ridgewood right after Dave Marr won the PGA, someone placed the pin on # 8 west up into the slope.  Golfers were four, and five putting from inside 6 feet.  I'm not certain, but I believe that the pin was changed during the tournament, despite the fact that some contestants had already played the hole.

The DA at # 10 at PV used to have the green slope feeding into it.  At about the time the Walker Cup was played, the configuration between green and bunker was altered, such that shots landing on the front of the green didn't feed back into the ice cream cone like bunker.  Some thought that the previous feature was unfair, especially since a ball returning to the bunker would most likely end up in the golfers footprints, which were created when they took their stance, and prevent them from ever extracating themselves from the bunker.

A stroke and distance penalty, requiring another tee shot back into the same hazardous landing zone is too severe a penalty, and unfair.

But, that's just my opinion.

[ForkaB]

Pat

Do they now hold a knife to your throat and demand that you hit driver on #5 BD?  When I played there it was permissible to hit 2 Iron short of the gunge, if you didn't feel like you were capable of placing your driver right or left of the hazard.......

[Matt_Ward]

The three-hole stretch of #4 through #6 at BD is simply first rate stuff.

Pat -- I really like the 5th because as others have chimed in you DO have plenty of options and you have to carefully calibrate them based on how you're swinging the club and whether or not you understand the daily dynamics of weather and the like. You do have plenty of room Pat for any range of options -- it's a question of how much of a "risk" do you believe you can take.

John V is quite correct about the length of grass back in '98 and how things have been "softened"   since then.

[ed_getka]

I have played Bandon a number of times and I really like #5. I don't recall the left side option being too narrow, but having said that, I did aim straight over the clumps, figuring I can't hit what I'm aiming at anyway. I never lost a ball in the clumps in the fairway, nor did I see anyone else in my group do so. I'm sure its possible to lose a ball in there, but unless it happens to most balls that go in there, then I wouldn't call it unfair or excessive.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I tend to play aggresively, with course management constraints, and trust my judgement with respect to how I asess the shot at hand, and my ability to pull it off.
I also believe that I hit my driver fairly accurately.

Hitting a 2-iron off the tee would leave me a wood into an extremely narrow fairway with penal surroundings.
If I elect to lay up short of the narrow fairway, it will leave me a longer shot into the green.

I prefer to use the most perfect lie in golf, a ball on a tee to execute a demanding shot, rather then a ball on the ground.

Ed Getka,

I too, like the 5th hole, but that doesn't mean that I can't deem an element of it as unfair.

Matt Ward,

Perhaps those responding should qualify their response by indicating which set of tees they played, as that has a dramatic impact on the play of the hole, especially into the wind.

Lost balls in the middle of the fairway seems excessive, penal or unfair.

[Michael Dugger]

I am not a long hitter, nor a great ball striker.

I play from the 'whites'.

I blasted a driver over the proverbial gunk.

I don't see the problem here.

I think it's pretty wide down there, you could navigate yourself into either side of that fairway if you don't want to hassle with the gunk.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mdugger,

At 374 yards from the whites, it's not quite the same challenge as it is from 428 or 445, especially into the wind.

I also believe that the angle of attack and what you face changes when you start going back to the more distant tees.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
 I don't understand your recurring theme of lost balls. It apparently didn't happen to you, but did it happen to others in your group? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, but I don't understand what yours is based on. Even if there were bunkers there I would expect them to be deep enough to eliminate getting to the green, so what difference would that make?

Has anybody from this site lost a ball in the clumps of grass on #5 that are out in the fairway?

[Odd_Job]

In regard to the term of "unfair" in respect to golf holes.  Our former green's committee chairman (who now holds a high position with the USGA) when confronted by a member unhappy about the "unfair" placement of a bunker, tree or other obstacle and the need to modify the course had a set reponse.

His reply was simply perfect.  "Don't hit it there".  

[BThomps]

The 5th at Bandon very fair, just very difficult depending on the direction of the wind.  You can see all your options from the tee, and pick your risk/reward level.  I've played it from multiple tees in both predominant wind directions (north and south) and don't feel as if I've faced the same hole twice.  Bombing a driver down the "middle" is not always the smartest and correct play on any hole.  If the wind is against you there is always the option of hitting your tee ball short of the clumps and playing it as a three shot hole (or hit an amazingly stupid shot from their down the bowling alley with a wood).  It has always seemed to me that there is plenty of room on the right, it takes a terrible stroke to hit it in the dunes over there (trust me I've done it and deserved it).  I would like to know if you think the 16th is unfair also, it has a canyon in the "middle" of the fairway that must be negotiated when the hole is into the wind.  

I think the best way to really judge the 5th is as a partner of the 4th.  Both of which are fairly long 4 pars that go in opposite directions. I see them as having a cumulative par of 8.5.  One of them will be downwind and relatively easy, while the other will be into the teeth of it and brutally difficult.  If feel that is great design work virtually guaranteeing the player pass a difficult test on one of these two holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Getka,

If it was just clumps of grass I would have no problem.  I'm talking about underbrush and the like.

I also don't have a problem with a deep bunker.

But, I do have a problem with a lost ball from a near perfect drive to the middle of the fairway.

Odd Job,

It's a cute catch all phrase that avoids the issue and never addresses the question or feature.
Don't hit it in the middle of the fairway ?

Try hitting the left side of that fairway, which requires a good carry, into a good wind.  It's narrow and the Pacific looms large to the left.

BThomps,

Par on both holes remains at 4, bogies 5s and double bogies
6s.  Most golfers aspire to score par or better* (adjusted for handicap), and I haven't met many, if any willing to accept scores below their ability.