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Jim Colton

Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« on: January 29, 2013, 11:50:28 PM »
1 - Red
2 - Blue
3 - Red
4 - Blue
5 - Blue
6 - Blue
7 - Red
8 - Blue
9 - Blue
10 - Red
11 - Red
12 - Blue
13 - Red
14 - Red
15 - Blue
16 - Red
17 - Blue
18 - Red

What you got?

Note: some of these were excrutiatingly difficult to decide on

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 08:34:12 AM »
The two I would disagree on most strongly would be 9 Red and 18 Blue.  I think those are two of the very best holes on the property.  I like their alter egos, too, but not nearly as much as these.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 08:44:49 AM »

1 - Blue
2 - Red
3 - Blue
4 - Red
5 - Blue
6 - Blue
7 - Red
8 - Red
9 - Red
10 - Blue
11 - Blue
12 - Blue
13 - Blue
14 - Red
15 - Blue
16 - Red
17 - Blue
18 - Red

What you got?

10B, 8R

Jim Colton

Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 09:35:16 AM »
The two I would disagree on most strongly would be 9 Red and 18 Blue.  I think those are two of the very best holes on the property.  I like their alter egos, too, but not nearly as much as these.

Tom, 18 was probably the toughest choice for me.

It's interest that Saltzman and I probably have similar tastes and both prefer the Blue course, but have more differences than similarities in the hole by holes.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 09:37:56 AM by Jim Colton »

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 09:50:35 AM »
The two I would disagree on most strongly would be 9 Red and 18 Blue.  I think those are two of the very best holes on the property.  I like their alter egos, too, but not nearly as much as these.

Tom, 18 was probably the toughest choice for me.

It's interest that Saltzman and I probably have similar tastes and both prefer the Blue course, but have more differences than similarities in the hole by holes.

Jim, there were some very tough choices like 6, 7 and 16 where I could see someone going either way, but I think you're just wrong about 1 and 9  :)

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 10:07:47 AM »
Written without review of Jim/Mark's list:

1. Red
2. Red
3. Red
4. Blue
5. Blue
6. Blue
7. Red (Toughest Choice for Me - but I just love that dune in and around that green and the litany of ways you can approach the green)
8. Red
9. Red
10. Red
11. Blue
12. Blue
13. Blue
14. Red
15. Blue
16. Red
17. Blue
18. Blue

Overall, I preferred the Blue course....although I felt that the front 9 on Red was the best 9 holes on the property.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 10:43:31 AM »
1.   Blue
2.   Blue
3.   Red
4.   Red
5.   Blue
6.   Blue
7.   Red
8.   Red
9.   Red      Toughest call here ( my favorite green on the property vs my favorite par 5 on the property)
10. Red
11. Red
12. Blue
13. Blue
14. Red
15. Red
16. Red
17. Blue
18. Red

I prefer the Blue, particularly the start, but gosh these are two very fun golf courses and I can't wait to go back to play them again and again.

Bill McKinley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 11:27:41 AM »
1. Blue
2. Blue
3. Red
4. Red
5. Blue
6. Red
7. Blue
8. Red
9. Red
10. Red
11. Blue
12. Blue
13. Red
14. Red
15. Blue
16. Red
17. Blue
18. Blue

9 of each. Pretty difficult task. I would say 6 and 7 where the two toughest for me to decide on.
2016 Highlights:  Streamsong Blue (3/17); Streamsong Red (3/17); Charles River Club (5/16); The Country Club - Brookline (5/17); Myopia Hunt Club (5/17); Fishers Island Club (5/18); Aronomink GC (10/16); Pine Valley GC (10/17); Somerset Hills CC (10/18)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 11:32:13 AM »
This will all mean more after I've played there in March!

Has the discussion of a composite course started yet?  Not just selection of most preferred holes from each course, but a playable composite course?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 11:48:29 AM »
There is no really meaningful way to put together an 18-hole composite course without a very long walk at some point.  And, no matter what way you try to put it together, you are going to leave out some of the best holes on the property.  If you wanted to get most of the better holes, you could play 1-9 Red, 17-18 Blue, 1-7 Blue, and finish on 16-18 Red, but that's 21 holes.  I guess Bill might consider that a routing, considering what he built at Lost Farm, but I wouldn't.  ;)

And even then, you'd have skipped 14-15 Red and 9-13 Blue, which are pretty good.

Jim Colton

Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 11:49:24 AM »
I don't think this would be a great composite course, but it gets you to 18.

7R
(skip 8)
9R-13R
13B-18B
1B-6B


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 12:04:52 PM »
I don't think this would be a great composite course, but it gets you to 18.

7R
(skip 8)
9R-13R
13B-18B
1B-6B



Jim:

I had thought of that one, but didn't bother saying it because it omits so many good holes on the Red (even though it does get in two of my favorites, 7 and 9).

How about this?

7 Red (5) - skip 8
9 Red (4) - bit of a walk
17 Blue (5)
18 Blue (4)
1-8 Blue (4-5-4-4-3-4-3-4)
12 Blue (4) - tee is right there with 9 back tee
14-18 Red (3-4-3-4-5)

It's even a par 72 course, although the first nine holes are par 38.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 12:31:48 PM »
The two I would disagree on most strongly would be 9 Red and 18 Blue.  I think those are two of the very best holes on the property.  I like their alter egos, too, but not nearly as much as these.

I must assume that the photos do not present 9 red properly as it just does not jump out as a great hole through the pictures that have been posted but obvioulsy you think very highly of what Bill created.

Will Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 01:56:35 PM »
1. Red
2. Blue
3. Blue
4. Blue
5. Blue
6. Blue
7. Red
8. Red
9. Red
10. Blue
11. Red.
12. Red
13. Red
14. Blue
15. Red
16. Red
17. Blue
18. Blue

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 02:04:20 PM »
For those that pick 1 Red over 1 Blue (and that seems to be the majority), can you explain why?

I found 1 Blue to be a tremendous short par-4, offering options from the tee and interestingly rewarding (and penalizing) well-played (and mis-positioned) tee shots.

I found 1 Red to be a long and difficult but ulitmately straight-forward par 4.5 where neither the tee shot nor approach was particularly compelling.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 03:17:02 PM »
Jim, Mark, et al:

Here's a comparison I'd be interested in, and in reading your views on: which of the architects (Tom or Bill) surprised you more with their work at Streamsong? Who brought elements/ideas (or, which sites allowed for courses that manifested elements/ideas) that you had not seen at their other courses?

Thanks - don't mean to thread jack, but shouldn't start another thread on this.

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 03:26:44 PM »
The two I would disagree on most strongly would be 9 Red and 18 Blue.  I think those are two of the very best holes on the property.  I like their alter egos, too, but not nearly as much as these.

I must assume that the photos do not present 9 red properly as it just does not jump out as a great hole through the pictures that have been posted but obvioulsy you think very highly of what Bill created.

Greg:

Surely you aren't going to judge a golf course by the photos?

9 Red would be the single best green ever built in Mexico, if it was there.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 03:32:37 PM »
The two I would disagree on most strongly would be 9 Red and 18 Blue.  I think those are two of the very best holes on the property.  I like their alter egos, too, but not nearly as much as these.

I must assume that the photos do not present 9 red properly as it just does not jump out as a great hole through the pictures that have been posted but obvioulsy you think very highly of what Bill created.

Greg:

Surely you aren't going to judge a golf course by the photos?

9 Red would be the single best green ever built in Mexico, if it was there.

1. I basically state as much in my comment and you telling me again, without elaboration, does not help fill in the blanks that the pictures miss... take the bait in my original comment and elaborate on what makes it so great.

I assume you have seen every single green ever built in Mexico to have made such a statement?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 03:39:23 PM »

Greg:

Surely you aren't going to judge a golf course by the photos?

9 Red would be the single best green ever built in Mexico, if it was there.

1. I basically state as much in my comment and you telling me again, without elaboration, does not help fill in the blanks that the pictures miss... take the bait in my original comment and elaborate on what makes it so great.

I assume you have seen every single green ever built in Mexico to have made such a statement?


No, but I know who has built all of the greens there.  ;)

Do I really have to do Bill Coore's p.r. work for him and describe in detail why the green is so great?  :)  There are all these other great critics of golf courses on this site, surely someone else can back me up with the details.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 03:44:22 PM »

Greg:

Surely you aren't going to judge a golf course by the photos?

9 Red would be the single best green ever built in Mexico, if it was there.

1. I basically state as much in my comment and you telling me again, without elaboration, does not help fill in the blanks that the pictures miss... take the bait in my original comment and elaborate on what makes it so great.

I assume you have seen every single green ever built in Mexico to have made such a statement?


No, but I know who has built all of the greens there.  ;)

Do I really have to do Bill Coore's p.r. work for him and describe in detail why the green is so great?  :)  There are all these other great critics of golf courses on this site, surely someone else can back me up with the details.

Kurt Bowman is offended!!! In all seriousness he did some greens here in Cabo that I imagine you would really like (not saying they rival SS 9R).

With all due respect to the great critics here on GCA, and now that Dr. Gray is no longer here, it was your perspective I was desirous of reading.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 04:09:41 PM »

Greg:

Surely you aren't going to judge a golf course by the photos?

9 Red would be the single best green ever built in Mexico, if it was there.

1. I basically state as much in my comment and you telling me again, without elaboration, does not help fill in the blanks that the pictures miss... take the bait in my original comment and elaborate on what makes it so great.

I assume you have seen every single green ever built in Mexico to have made such a statement?


No, but I know who has built all of the greens there.  ;)

Do I really have to do Bill Coore's p.r. work for him and describe in detail why the green is so great?  :)  There are all these other great critics of golf courses on this site, surely someone else can back me up with the details.

 On the 9th hole, with the usual 3+ presses riding, I hit a good drive and had about 50-60 yards in to pin on the highest point on the green, on what appeared from the fairway to be near the center of the green.
Several nice looking wedges by opponents landed near the flag, checked, and rolled off long, or pin high right, to a bowl well beneath the level of the green and in particular , this pin.
After a quick reexamination, I then played intentionally 15-20 feet left of the flag from , something I've never done before on purpose, and very gingerly two putted, taking care to avoid rolling to where they hit their approaches, which led to a win ;D
Scary green, didn't really look at the rest of the green that carefully, as my work required full attention ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 08:03:39 PM »
I tried this exercise and came up with a 37-37 Par 74 with five par fives and three par 3s! I don't think an exercise creating a course like this really identifies the 18 best holes at the resort.
For instance, I think both #7s belong in the top 18, and I think an argument could be made for both #13s as well. So, I've made my list in a different way. My top 15 holes as I see them in groups of five, in numerical order, not a ranking order:

The Epics:
Blue 4 - This hole has it. I remember walking the site with Tom and asking "you're putting the green up there?" Yes. "Up there???" YES.
Blue 5 - Tom said some of the greens at Wolf Point were wild?...ah, this is one wild green in a great setting. Only negative i saw was the hotel screws up the backdrop. Photo shop the building out and you've got one of the great looks in golf.
Blue 6 - maybe the best hole on the property
Red 7 - The tee shot over the bunker cut into the bank above the lake is worth the price of admission. Throw in the odd sandy projection on the front of the green, then factor in the wild green itself, and you've got a golf hole that is very, very bold. This hole will wreak some scores but there is no question it belongs in the epic group.    
Red 9 - Wow. First off, this hole should be the governor of which tees to play at SS Red. Choose a tee that gets you on or near the green, and then play that set all around and I think you'll have fun. I drove this green twice, and managed to walk away even par.

Great Holes:
Blue 7 - have to be honest, the routing feels odd in this stretch. And from the back tee and down the line look, its OK, but move up a set and play the hole in a more perpendicular look, and it comes alive.
Blue 10 - This is a cagey little one. the shaping in the approach and tie in to the left fronting bunker is master craftsmanship. My good friend Garry watched what he thought to be a perfectly weighted shot to a front pin come up just a fraction short and then start its long, slow, painful trundle into what Garry quickly named the "sphincter" bunker.
Red 13 - I'm a sucker for a green tucked behind a dune, and this hole doesn't disappoint.
Blue 16 - Another under the radar hole that will often lose out to the Red 16th. Problem is, IMHO, this hole works way better then the Red 16th. For one, its long enough to require a long club that can get the ball rolling to take advantage of the green slope, and its uphill! This is a long par 3 that requires (maybe doesn't require but at least favors) the low running approach. Throw in a perfectly placed bunker to gobble up any low runner that doesn't carry the proper distance and you have a great long uphill par 3. This hole has stones!
Red 17 - In the ecletic selections Blue 17 will be the popular choice, but I like this hole. Love the way the bunker gashes into the fwy slope, and I like the little pot that awaits a drive that doesn't catch the speed slope up high enough. Also like the waste area that runs up the entire right side. A beautiful golf hole.


Really Good
Blue 1 - Not a huge fan of the trudge up the hill as I think the hole is just as good from down below. But this green complex is very cool.
Blue 2 - Love the different levels in the fwy right around the corner from the rt fwy bunker. Hit the perfect power fade and be rewarded with a doable approach to a heavily defended green. Fade it just a bit too much and run down to the bottom where it gets a little more interesting. The left green fronting bunker is very well done.
Red 4 - I'm not the biggest fan of some of the longer 4s on the Red, but the short 4s and 5s more them make up for it. I found myself out of position twice on this hole but was able to use the contour behind the green to move the ball into makeable range. I don't hear much about this hole but i really like it.
Red 18 - Some are saying this 18th reminds them of the 18th at Talking Stick North, as if its already been done, it can't be good. I love the diagonal hazard, and I drove it up the left side twice. Once getting into position to reach the green with a 6 iron for an easy birdie, and once not clearing the bunker and pitching out. There is enough room left of the bunker to make that play if the conditions are right. The green is severe, with the fronting bumps requiring an aggressive approach and the back bunker all too ready to gobble up anything hit to far. I think it’s a very good par 5.  
Blue 18- A beautiful hole that requires two excellent shots to get home. I managed to reach the green in my two plays, with a 3 wood, but both times I ran to the back. You do not want to be at the back of this green when the pin is front, middle, or maybe anywhere. I putted off this green while Garry was leaving his 8 iron third three feet under the hole and made a par. This hole kicked my butt, but I believe its pretty darn good.

Others of note
Blue 17 - lots of people really liked this hole, and I was in awe of the right fwy bunker, but there just seemed to be a lot of bunkers on this hole, or at least bunker square footage. It is a good hole, but seemed to be a bit too much for me to put in my top 15.
Blue 13 - I love short par 4s, and the left green side bunker belongs in the epic category. But for this hole to really work I think the turf on the approach and the turf on the green need to be a little closer in playability. It is short, but its very tough and I didn't see many players who could control their golf ball on this hole.
Red 2 - I thought this was a good par 5 and very similar in strategy to blue #2. But I liked the green complex on Blue 2 better.
Red 11 - Very cool driving hole with great use of the slope and bunker placement.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:13:38 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 08:37:50 PM »
Don, Blue 11 not one or your favorite 18 holes on property?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 08:51:01 PM »
Mark, there are a lot of good holes out there and one thing I've learned is I don't often see things the same way as the majority. I don't know if everyone thinks Blue 11 should be considered among the best holes out there or not. I certainly did not dislike the hole, and I like the green complex a lot, but I found others to be more interesting.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamix: Streamsong Ecletic
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 09:03:41 PM »
Don,
as far as your remarks on #13 Blue,
 are you saying you'd like to see the fairway turf firmer and faster?
or the greens slower
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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