Weaknesses of Royal St. George's?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JJSE,
No need to apologize. More then anything, it is inspiring to see and hear your views of it, as well as some of us trying to get the point across how America has unforutnately changed the way the Game is meant to be played. Royal St. George is a testament to that!

Please tell me you got some images of the Maiden!!!!!

[James Edwards]

Tommy,

Please book that flight and come and play RStG as my guest.  Then you can experience the course and it's superb playability.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

That is a very dangerous propostion!

First, we would have to have the course to ourselves for at least a day so we could take our time looking at each hole and studying the architecture that exists and used to exist out there. Can you imagine the old holes that are probably still in those tall, glorious dune grasses?

I would also need about three hours alone on the Maiden. Make that about twenty hours with a work crew! Will have the hole back in action again!

[James Edwards]

Tommy,

I agree.

Lets make it happen.  The course super intendent Neil Metcalf would be only to pleased to show us around.  Also, You can still see the old green formations of the old 17th which is near to the 18th tee.  

I'll get the Captain involved and I'm sure he'd be only to pleased to tell us about every little detail of history regarding the course layout both new and old.

[T_MacWood]

Is Alister MacKenzie largely resposible for the greens at Sandwich?

[Ran Morrissett]

James,

Did you see Tom MacWood's find under In My Opinion entitled World's Finest Courses? Sandwich was ranked 5th in the world by a distinguished panel in the 1939.

I know several Americans and one Aussie who would support a similar ranking today and yet, among many Brits, the preference drifts toward Birkdale with its lush, flatter fairways.

My question for you as a local is: how is RSG viewed in GB&I? Golf World has it #16 in GB&I    

Cheers,

[Ran Morrissett]

TE Paul,

I think Fownes would be very disappointed to see you write "Oakmont to me is not a links-style course." You got some 'splaining' to do!

Tom M.,

With Campbell, Hutchison, Fowler, and Abercromby as members, and with Colt and MacKenzie consulting, and Darwin always about, how can that have been anything but a plus for the course? Or is there something to be said about too many chefs in the kitchen? Wonder how they all interacted?

Cheers,

[James Edwards]

Ran,

Im from the SE of England, right in the corner where RStG is found next to the greatness of Rye and Royal Cinque Ports amongst others such as Littlestone, Princes (next door to RStG) and North Foreland (directly across Pegwell Bay).

#16 in GB&I doesnt surprise me Ran because the course has been consistently overlooked for many years now to it's mor famous brothers and sisters.  Then again the 'list' scenario/argument/ thing as detailed on this site is sometimes wrong.  I would put the course in the top 10 definately if not higher if you give me the chance....

To answer your question, I know the course is not regarded as high as the Carnousties, TOC, Muirfields, Turnberrys, Lythams, Birkdales, Royal Liverpools, Troons by most of the people I talk to, but I truly believe it is, if not higher than all but one.  The RStG course experience is different and I know the course has alot of quiet, armchair admirers.

Your list of past members and architects is a true reflection of it's pedigree.  The course has been tampered with as you are no doubt aware, but the flavour which is RStG is still prominent.  The back tees are a great edition to the course because of the changing times of modern day play, luckily the course has the space and the capacity to reap the benefits unlike Lytham.

The Nicklaus comment didnt help, although he did win an amateur event here which I play in now called the Grand Challenge played over RStG and RCP for £20 (possibly the best money in golf anywhere).  

Ive played a number of the best Links courses including the Open Courses and I would firstly say IMO that RStG is for me one of the most interesting links style courses in the country.  It has incredible undulation, long winding contours, towering dunes but most importantly a great playability.  There are blind shots to greens and blind shots off the tee, but the course respects this and you will find the respective green formations less bold (5th).  

There are long short holes (11th) and short long holes (4th), There are short short holes (16th) and long long holes (14th) right angled short par 4's (12th) and long, swooping dog legged holes such as 17th.  Straight away holes (1st & 15th), short uphill holes (9th) and long uphill holes (10th).  Stunning downhill holes (8th) and undulating holes (2nd and 17th) Superb Pitch holes (3rd & 6th) and reachable par 5's (7th).

In true Open spirit, the course has a solid start, although the first hole is misunderstood.  The course gives you the chance to make a score early and give you a false sense of security but then bites you later when you make the turn for home on the last 5 or so.

The course has an excellent finish.  Starting at the 14th (although the old 13th would be involved if the tee was still where it should be).  The OB factor is high for this fine 3 shotter, the 15th plays Driver, 2iron to a green small enough to be considered small for a par 5!, 16th a six iron, 17th fairway is hard to find at any time, followed by a long iron to an elevated green and 18 always stands firm every year, don't miss the fairway right.

On a romantic note RStG has superb long views out across Pegwell Bay, and amazing tumbling views across the course once the shadows start emerging.  The course photographs better than most aswell because of the ever changng areas of light and dark caused by the dune formations.

I'm fortunate enough to have travelled to the East Coast of the US last year on a 30 day tour from Miami up to Brookline where we saw 35 courses from Seminole to TCC.  I was taken back by Seminole, Shinnecock, NGLA and Kiawah as far as the coastal courses I saw.  RStG is high up on both sides of the Atlantic IMO.

Ran, please come and play the fine courses in this area one day and I can show you why this course is one of the finest links anywhere.

[T_MacWood]

Ran
Perhpas the secret may be they didn't seek the opinion of too many cooks. It appears they decided on Colt early on and stayed with him (or Colt & MacKenzie). I don't believe the others were ever involved. They were religated to nearby Princes (Campbell & Morrison), Deal (Hutchison, Campbell, Alison and Morrison--talk about a lot of chefs), Rye (Simpson) and North Foreland (Fowler, Abercromby, Simpson & Croome).

JJSE
More famous brothers and sisters than Sandwich? How do you figure?

If I'm not mistaken Ran has played Sandwich and most of the courses in that corner. Are you under the impression he is not high on the course -- that's not my read?

[James Edwards]

Tom,

I know he is high on the course.  You misunderstood me - my apologies for not being clear.

James

[NAF]

Tom MacWood

I think you forgot 2 important people vis a vis Deal.. Henry Hunter originally laid out the course and some versions of 9 of his holes still stand.  Hunter was the brother of the greenskeeper at RSG.  James Braid came in and did another 9 holes (most notably the 10th which he raved about).  Sir Guy Campbell came in and fixed up the course including the greens that were destroyed because of WWII (about 3 or 4) and didnt alter much else.  Donald Steel is the last to add to the mix.  He has put in some new bunkers and filled in some others.  An irrigation system has also been put in at Deal.

[T_MacWood]

Noel
The Hunter-Braid course was destroyed in the 30's as a result of some kind of natural disaster. I'm not sure what Campbell did after the war.

Darwin, who followed the process of rebuilding Deal, wrote an entertaining account of what he found:

"What is the right noun of number--does one talk of a pride or a charm or a gaggle of golfing architects? I am not sure, but I am sure that I never saw so many of them together before as I did a forthnight ago when i went to look at the great things that have been happening at Deal. There was Mr. John Morrison, Mr. Alison, Major C.K. Hutchison, and Sir Guy  Campbell, who have all had a finger in designing the pie; Mr. Claud Harris and Mr. Willie Murray have made the pie, together with the admirable forman Mr. Harry Clements....I thought of

'And party leaders you might meet
By twos and threes every street
Discussing with no little heat
Their various opinions'

but in fact the quotation was not in the least appropriate, for the architects who had tackled one hole congratulated those who tackled another. Everybody was pleased with everybody else and with Deal, and it seemed to me that everybody was entirely justified."

--1939

[Tommy_Naccarato]

When speaking of Deal, I think it be best that we allow room for Craig Disher to comment who has done a lot of painstaking research on the club and its changes.

But, I do think they need to restore the Soup Bowl!

[James Edwards]

Tommy,

The Maiden at RStG, the Soup Bowl at RCP next door.  Get that work crew in there Tommy....  Are you referring to the punchbowl 3rd?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Ran,

I think you can consider this thread as a cry for help and your marching orders to break ground at The Carthage Club. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/carthageclub1.html Unfortunately, jumping on a plane to the U.K. is not as easy as we would like it to be, but Pinehurst area is another story!!

Please start staking the course tomorrow so that I can walk it with you in late August when I am down there.  

PS. Someone please report me to the moderator !!

[ForkaB]

Getting back to the question at hand.....

Two more days of watching (as well as the comments/observations on this thread and others) make me more convinced that the set-up for this Open is flawed/and or the architecture of RSG is suspect.

Let's take the 17th as an example.  From IBF's commentary and JJSE's knowledgeable explanation, it appears that there is a ridge in the area likely to be reached by driver at that hole which (if you reach it) makes it impossible to keep the ball on the fairway.  To me, this sort of situation is no better than Seve's demented addition of deep rough perpendicular to the fairway at about the 290 mark on the 17th at Valderamma.  A "bottle" hole with a fully inserted cork.  Stupid, IMHO.

Added to that are:

--greens with significantly different speeds
--pins almost relentlessly placed on little poofs/humps
--fairway narrowing leading to semi-rough results on tees shots which almost dictates bump and run (i.e. eliminating the aerial game)
--very few (if any) risk/reward options (i.e. "strategy")

Overall, too much of a grinders course/course set-up.  Scott Hoch might have been near the top of the leaderboard if he had chosen to come over (and if had realised that “target golf” can co-exist with fast and firm conditions--you just have to understand that the “target” is not the pin nor the “right” side of the fairway, but hump A or hump B, depending on the wind)!

All that being said, great tournament, and lots of fun to watch.

[Holyhead_ferry_1]

Ran
Links golf in the British Isles is an experience that what ever the course St Georges, Birkdale, Porthcawl or New Zealand the list is endless as you know to say that the toughest 'Open' venue has weakness or the suggestion that it might.
Just look at the score, at 6.50 AM EST 1 under leads the Open. Shinnecock is a similar but different course to play. I have played both venues under Tournament Conditions and they are a superb test of golf in their respective ways. Tom Simpson, Colt, Alison, Macdonald, Mackenzie or Ross all vaireid their interpretaion of the Old Course into their layouts mother nature helps too.

To the purist and the officianado of the game, I really do suggest that any American serious enough to travel to the UK not only travels the 'Holy trail' of Scotland but the rest of England and Wales. I would be pleased to organise the route of choice and give the traveller a route of golf and hospitality that would leave them breathless and glad he or she went.

Golf in the UK and Eire is not visiting the 'Greats' although once in your life you should stand at St Andrews. There are places that when you stand on the tee your heart misses a beat, where an 11th century castle watches over you as you put for the match, where you look down on Dublin Bay, or into the mountain ranges of the Highlands.

Golf architecture in the UK and Eire is a experience to all even Pet Dye, yet to me talking with my peirs and gentlemen of repute in the US, they don't grasp the essence of what the architect produced and the thought behind it.

Anyway there will be much disscussion about weakness and the strengths of courses till the sun forgets to shine, most of all here where we can all share a thought or two.

Regards
Ian

 

[A_Clay_Man]

JJSE- At least the R&A rate it highly enough to be part of the rota.

Rihc- If I'm not mistaken all those extras you added are what has led American golf to become the stereotypical mundane American Golf. (Save for that last r/r.)  As for the critique of the seventeenth and JJSE's description of the fairway never being found, why not just bomb it? since your destiny is rough bound anywho. Now, thats an option. But I do like the devils advocacy role. And, the proof is in the pudding of creating a most exciting Championship. And I thought I'd have to wait for next year's womens open;['=[---

[Marty Bonnar]

Congratulations, Ben - well done for dropping less strokes than Thomas over the final round?!!
On Topic though..
It just struck me that a MAJOR weakness of RSG is the 18th hole playing directly into the setting sun. I hate seeing players having to squint to see how their approach shots are doing in our sunday fourball, never mind The Open Championship!

FBD.

[James Edwards]

Here, Here....

Thats a fair point about the last though, especially as they had the whole property to route the last hole into.  

[Marty Bonnar]

JJ
Maybe it's time you were penning a wee sketch re-routing for your fellow members and the greens committee to peruse...?

FBD.

[James Edwards]

Yes, I've already been looking into it.

Look at Mr Burroughs Aerial view of RStG and give me your opinion..

James

[Marty Bonnar]

James
Damn, I can't find the link to SB's aerial - I was looking at it only yesterday too! I MUST stop drinking red wine this early on a Sunday!!!!

Pointer please??

FBD.

[James Edwards]

Jeremy Glenn on the 2nd page has an aerial of RStG and then SB replies with the link to his AOTD.

Hope this helps and poor one for me please (which Red are you drinking?).

James

[Marty Bonnar]

Thanks James
And got it!
A (very) quick look tends to make me think that the 13, 14, 15 (?) 'triangle ' could be re-done to add a 16th, (maybe two sets of two parallel fairways?) then 17 and 18 could run South-west(ish) to finish somewhere about the middle of the current 18th. I'm not too enamoured with the current bunkering of 18 anyway...esp around the Green. It seems to me to be bunkering with no real strategic value? You will certainly be a better judge than I....
Am I right in thinking that the ground to the north of 18 is outwith the bounds of the Club's ownership??

BTW - The Red was a very fine Aussie (Hardy's). They are embarrasing the rest of the World with the quality of their Wines right now - maybe Greg will have a resurgence to match soon!?!?!?

FBD.