[Dan Herrmann]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?  The changes look like they were done by a kid who was trying to "make the course harder"  From the crazy fairway on #2 to the stop sign tee (#14), the changes reek of lunacy.  And don't get me started on the destruction of the 12th and 15th greens.

Why, O Merion, Why?

[jeffwarne]

Read the posted Penn state turfgrass article for a few answers.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Dan have you played 12 and15 since the green work???   Just wondering.
Ed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Read the posted Penn state turfgrass article for a few answers.

Jeff,

I didn't find that they "answer" Dan's questions.

Others, including myself, were very critical of the flattening of the greens, something that many want to sweep under the carpet.
WFW is guilty of the same practice, as is PV.
The fact that each of those clubs kept the disfigurement of the original greens a closely guarded secret tells you that they were aware that the flattening of those greens was a disfiguration that resulted in the loss of character in those greens, all in the quest/desire for speed.

What Merion and other clubs are willing to do to accommodate a major event is their prerogative, but, in the sense of preserving the character the original greens, as conceived and constructed by their original architect, at clubs that pride themselves on tradition, you have to question the decisions.

Dan, you're far from the only one who thinks that Merion and other clubs have sold their architectural soul.

[Neil White]

For those in the know,

Is there some special history to the last of the three fairway bunkers on the 15th?  From the top down view it seems they have made an exact replica of the bunker just further up the fairway.

Neil.

[Dan Herrmann]

Neil - I'm definitely not in the know, but it seems like these bunkers are meant to keep balls inbounds.  If that was a concern, then why mow the friggin fairway so close to the road?!

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Pat, I'm not totally familiar with the Merion work but I would tend to disagree about the work at PV relative to the greens.

I often take a ribbing that I better not criticize the new bunkers on four too much if I want to stay in everyone's good graces,  but having played the new greens a decent amount of times last summer just can't agree that they ruined anything. Number two was flattened just a bit , and if you really didn't know it someone would be hard pressed to say where. Having a couple more pin positions on the left side isn't such a bad thing. Same with five and fifteen, though it might be easier to make an argument on both. No sense hijacking this thread though , and we can discuss this elsewhere.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hey Pat, I'm not totally familiar with the Merion work but I would tend to disagree about the work at PV relative to the greens.

I often take a ribbing that I better not criticize the new bunkers on four too much if I want to stay in everyone's good graces,  but having played the new greens a decent amount of times last summer just can't agree that they ruined anything. Number two was flattened just a bit , and if you really didn't know it someone would be hard pressed to say where.

Having a couple more pin positions on the left side isn't such a bad thing. Same with five and fifteen, though it might be easier to make an argument on both. No sense hijacking this thread though , and we can discuss this elsewhere.

Archie,

I don't disagree that the greens remain a challenging and enjoyable test, but, in the purest sense, you've compromised the architectural integrity of those greens.  You've essentially imposed your design philosophy and overridden Crump's.

My concern is rooted in the "Domino" theory, that once you approve an alteration to one feature, surely others are going to fall at a subsequent date and whim.

[V. Kmetz]

PM,

You can respond off-thread if needs be, but I wasn't aware of any green flattening at WFW in 2005-6...which holes and/or from what source was the info?

They created a back left shelf on #18, but that was the extent of what I saw go on there.  If it occurred in 05 or 06 it would have been hard to do as the East was shut and the West was the only course used for 1.5/2 years.

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

PM,

You can respond off-thread if needs be, but I wasn't aware of any green flattening at WFW in 2005-6...which holes and/or from what source was the info?

They created a back left shelf on #18, but that was the extent of what I saw go on there.  If it occurred in 05 or 06 it would have been hard to do as the East was shut and the West was the only course used for 1.5/2 years.

VK

Neil Regan can supply you with the details.

He's a pretty reliable source.

[V. Kmetz]

Ok will do

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - two cents from the peanut gallery/cheap seats, from where I can only view before and after pictures: I dislike everything about the changes, and, more importantly, I have a sinking feeling that -- unless there is just perfect and sunny and dry weather leading up to championship week  -- the U.S. Open at Merion will prove to be the USGA's waterloo, a (very public) low point re its approach to hosting major tournaments, and a (resounding) 'no' to its belief that great old courses need to commit architectural suicide in order to serve as Open venues. Everything about the look and set-up will scream "hard'...but it will prove to be nothing of the sort. It will prove instead to be a broken down relic, and one stripped of all the very charms and architectural interest and history that attracted the USGA in the first place.   

[Dan Herrmann]

Peter,  I hope not but I can see where you're coming from.   A risk is that Philly June weather isn't that different from Portland   

I obviously want them to be successful, but sometimes I wonder how the USGA and Merion define success

Biggest regret for me is that the USGA could roll back the ball and restore sanity, but they have wimped out.

[Jason Walker]

Maybe this has been discussed before, but I can't recall:  Are the fairway line changes intended to be permanent?  How about the added bunkers?  I'm in agreement that these changes are not good.  Travesty is perhaps too strong of a word.  The stewards of the club are not idiots, and are not deaf to their responsibility of honoring the legacy of Merion.

As to the 12th and 15th greens:  In my opinion, the changes are long overdue.  I've played where a front pin on 15, during a fast and firm summer (not an attempt to make the greens "fast"), turned into a foursome of single digit handicappers picking up after not being able to get the ball to stay on the green after four putts plus.

[Mike Sweeney]

I do like the new fairway lines on 11 in terms of how they now bring the creek into play off the tee and how they combines the 11-12 fairways:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/merione/aerial.htm

[Bill Brightly]

Maybe this has been discussed before, but I can't recall:  Are the fairway line changes intended to be permanent? 

I can't believe the members will want to continue playing those mowing lines. Nothing fun about them, just pure hard.

As to the 12th and 15th greens:  In my opinion, the changes are long overdue.  I've played where a front pin on 15, during a fast and firm summer (not an attempt to make the greens "fast"), turned into a foursome of single digit handicappers picking up after not being able to get the ball to stay on the green after four putts plus.

Agree. Pat can complain all day long, but greens speeds over 10 on the stimp are here to stay. Something has to give unless you like "goofy golf" and I know it won't be lightning fast greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

With increased speeds, more and more spectacular greens will be altered, eliminating their inate character, that which made them distinct and  great.

The trend toward greens without character is the by-product of increased speeds.

And remember, all that's needed for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.

[Niall C]

Patrick

I suppose in a way, this is a bit like the TOC controversy, and the first question I would ask you, are you sure that none of the greens in question weren't touched over the years prior to the recent changes ?

Niall

[Charlie Gallagher]

Dan and company,
    You are not alone.

 I have been lucky enough to play the East Course 15 times over a 24 year period, the last time was two summers ago. I love Merion for its visual presentation, the definition and visability of its hazards, its sheer challenge, and its history, but when I last visited I found some of the changes jarring. The aerial photos show some of the unsettling adjustments.
 The back tee on number 2 looks out of place. It's in play from the 10th tee for the big hitters a tee shot, going for that green in one. As well, the 2nd fairway has been moved further right over the years so it is now almost in the road. All over the course tees have been created to add length and many of them look out of place because the club lacks the acreage for seamless yardage addition.This is true on 2,3,5,6 and 14.
   I find it interesting that number 11 is actually wider down the left side of the fairway. It has always been the narrowest fairway on the course and by widening left they are bringing the tributary into Cobb's Creek more into play. It's a fantastic short par 4.
   Merion has always been strategic as it presents options off the tee repeatedly. It has been choked to the point where if it is firm it will be virtually unplayable for  anyone but a low single digit player. I don't think that is what Hugh Wilson had in mind one hundred years ago. I trust when the USGA has released it's grip the club will readjust the course to be less penal and a bit more inviting as one attempts to link shots together.

[Tom_Doak]

I have not seen the changes to Merion and am hesitant to go.

I think that Niall is probably right, that the previous round of changes to Merion was one thing that emboldened Mr. Dawson to think of changing The Old Course. 

It was a cause celebre here for a couple of years, but we didn't manage to do anything to convince the membership that they were ruining their course in pursuit of another championship.  In fact, we've celebrated the fact that they are going to host another championship.  And it could backfire in our faces ... because with all of the changes, even if it's successful, it will have been self-defeating.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

I suppose in a way, this is a bit like the TOC controversy, and the first question I would ask you, are you sure that none of the greens in question weren't touched over the years prior to the recent changes ?

I can't speak for TOC
As to Merion I don't believe any changes were made to the greens prior to the awarding of the 2013 Open

Niall

[Nate Oxman]

Charlie,

I don't think the back tee on No. 2 is out of place at all. It only slightly changes the angle of the tee shot from the original back tee. From the white tees, the angle changes a good amount, but not from the old back tee. And in no way does it come into play for those going for the green on No. 10. I don't think I've ever seen a tee shot from No. 10 find that tee, even from the whites, in hundreds of rounds. Maybe one or two from high handicappers on a second shot played from the fairway bunker on the left or the fescue to the left of it, but that's it. I have seen many fly it into the front bunker slightly to the right of No. 2 tee, but in line with the tee is just too far left. Any tee shots that far left weren't intended to end up there.

The pros going for the green will be aiming 25-30 yards to the right, at the front of the green. Anyone who tries to fly his tee shot onto the middle or left portion of the green is suicidal. There's no way to get the ball to stay, the bunker that wraps around the back of the green makes for a difficult up and down and there is out of bounds just a few feet beyond the back of the bunker. It's a fairly easy birdie hole if you hit a 220-250 tee shot into the fairway and then a wedge to the green. If a player take his chances with that front bunker, odds are he won't be left with an easy up and down, even if it's one of the world's best. It's a much more unfriendly bunker than it appears in the aerial.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Let me clarify and refine my observation abit. You are correct that the new 2nd tee is only in play if a bomber were to strike a long, overhooked tee shot from 10 tee. I also agree that the smartest strategy would be a carefully placed layup setting up a short ptich. However, Palmer in 1960 shows that what you and I deem smart, may not be what Dustin Johnson thinks advisable.
   More to the point, the new tee looks out of place. I noticed it as soon as I had finished crossing the street.  Its location just looks forced. This is true of several of the other newer back tees, especially the one that is part of the practice green and is used to lengthen 14.
   I will expand the topic a little and speculate as follows. I don't know what the USGA is going to use for yardages on the shorter holes, but several will be theoretically driveable, 1, 7, and 8 come to mind, as does 10. I wonder if the USGA may find conditions and winds that actually invite shortening of certain holes to invite more interesting play from the tee. Of those 4 holes I might hit driver on 7 and 8, and would hit it on 10,  but I am not in the same area code in terms of length and accuracy off the tee as Open Qualifiers so they may have other thoughts.

[Bryan Izatt]

This is true of several of the other newer back tees, especially the one that is part of the practice green and is used to lengthen 14.

Do you know for sure that they intend to have a tee on the practice green?  When I went by a month ago there didn't appear to be any area of the practice green that was flat enough to be a tee.  And, at best it would only add a few yards to the hole.

[Nate Oxman]

They're definitely using the practice green as the tee for No. 14. There's at least one marker on the right side of the practice tee (if you're facing No. 14 fairway) that will have it play a little over 470 yards. Believe it or not this tee actually adds just under 60 yards to the hole from the normal back tee and 30 yards from the spot on the old practice green where they played No. 14 from during the '09 Walker Cup. Should be an interesting hole to watch: OB left in play if they get really aggressive on the tee shot trying to cut the corner, nasty fescue between that OB and the fairway, a blind second shot to a green where you have to be below the hole. Average score in '05 Amateur was 4.548, which made it the ninth hardest hole! Hard to believe. Average score for two stroke play rounds was 78.158 and every hole played over par (though I'm guessing that's not unusual?). I know the level of talent will be much higher in June, but the course setup will be much more difficult.

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