[Sidney Lin]

I am a relative newbie to GCA and would like to hear what you think is the greatest Alister MacKenzie composite course. In other words the 18 best hole he has designed put together into par 72.

I am a bit bias having played most of my golf in Australia, can I kick off some par 3 suggestions with:

6th at NSW
15th at Kingston Heath
7th Royal Adelaide
12th at Augusta

Thoughts?

Also what about other architects both Golden Age and Modern Era? Composite Donald Ross? Composite Pete Dye?

***Open letter to Donald Trump or Mission Hills: Please build***

Love to hear your thoughts and apologies if this topic has been done before!

[Scott Warren]

Sidney,

6th at NSWGC is not a MacKenzie hole, it is an Apperly hole.

[Sidney Lin]

Sorry scratch the 6th at NSW and replace with 16th at Cypress Point!!!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Nice idea for a thread.

From GB&I you might expect to see something from Lahinch (perhaps the 9th), Moortown (the 10th probably) and Alwoodley.

Ally

[Jud_T]

The 5th at Crystal Downs has to be included.

[Mike Hendren]

While I've had the great fortune to play Cypress Point Club,  Crystal Downs and Pasatiempo I am struggling to identify which holes at Augusta National Golf Club to OMIT.    I guess I'd start with 2, 6, 7, 16 and 17. 

Bogey, The Apologist

[Bill Seitz]

At Pasatiempo in the clubhouse there's a map and routing of Mackenzie's "Dream 18".  I can't recall if it's the same one that Geoff Shackelford put together, as posted in this thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22897.0.html

According to that thread, it was put together by a number of architects, including messrs. Doak and DeVries, so maybe they have some input.

Here it is as listed:
#1   Pasatiempo #1      Par5   510
#2   U. of Michigan #6   Par 4   310
#3   Royal Melbourne #4   Par 5   470
#4   Kingston Heath #15   Par 3   155
#5   County Life Winner   Par 4   460
#6   Royal Melbourne #10   Par 4   305
#7   Royal Melbourne #6   Par 4   430
#8   Royal Adelaide #3   Par 4   300
#9   Moortown #10      Par 3   190
Out            Par 36   3130
#10   Crystal Downs #5      Par 4   355
#11   Crystal Downs #8      Par 5   550
#12   Cypress Point #9      Par 4   300
#13   Cypress Point #16   Par 3   235
#14   Pastiempo #14      Par 4   425
#15   Sitwell Park #18      Par 3   140
#16   Valley Club #3      Par 4   450
#17   Augusta National #12   Par 3   155
#18   Augusta National #13   Par 5   485
In            Par 35   3095

Total            Par 71   6225

Like Brendan, who posted that thread, I'm surprised 16 as Pasatiempo wasn't on the list.  I also assume that per this list the first hole at Pasa was designed as a par five?  Doesn't play that way now. 

[Bill_McBride]

At Pasatiempo in the clubhouse there's a map and routing of Mackenzie's "Dream 18".  I can't recall if it's the same one that Geoff Shackelford put together, as posted in this thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22897.0.html

According to that thread, it was put together by a number of architects, including messrs. Doak and DeVries, so maybe they have some input.

Here it is as listed:
#1   Pasatiempo #1      Par5   510
#2   U. of Michigan #6   Par 4   310
#3   Royal Melbourne #4   Par 5   470
#4   Kingston Heath #15   Par 3   155
#5   County Life Winner   Par 4   460
#6   Royal Melbourne #10   Par 4   305
#7   Royal Melbourne #6   Par 4   430
#8   Royal Adelaide #3   Par 4   300
#9   Moortown #10      Par 3   190
Out            Par 36   3130
#10   Crystal Downs #5      Par 4   355
#11   Crystal Downs #8      Par 5   550
#12   Cypress Point #9      Par 4   300
#13   Cypress Point #16   Par 3   235
#14   Pastiempo #14      Par 4   425
#15   Sitwell Park #18      Par 3   140
#16   Valley Club #3      Par 4   450
#17   Augusta National #12   Par 3   155
#18   Augusta National #13   Par 5   485
In            Par 35   3095

Total            Par 71   6225

Like Brendan, who posted that thread, I'm surprised 16 as Pasatiempo wasn't on the list.  I also assume that per this list the first hole at Pasa was designed as a par five?  Doesn't play that way now. 

Bill, the first at Pasatiempo was a typical MacKenzie starting hole, a pleasant par 5 for a warm up.  Moving the tee up 10 yards and turning it into a ball buster par 4 was a lousy idea, at least to me, from a psychological perspective. 

[Mike Hendren]

The 5th at Crystal Downs has to be included.

Jud, far be it for me to disagree with both you and the Good Doctor - the 5th is a fun, quirky hole no doubt but nothing a bombed tee shot can't solve today.  (In addition to the 8th) I'd go with the 4th instead - one of the best tests of driving the golf ball I've played. 

Bogey

[Alex Miller]

Composite courses by architect could be a fun idea, but I think keeping the hole # from the original course and applying it to the composite course makes it even more fun! 

Hole 1: Pasatiempo or Crystal Downs?

I've only played Pasa, but CD seems like the choice for me. Going through on a hole by hole basis and coming up with a composite course could be fun.

[Jud_T]

The 5th at Crystal Downs has to be included.

Jud, far be it for me to disagree with both you and the Good Doctor - the 5th is a fun, quirky hole no doubt but nothing a bombed tee shot can't solve today. 

At least until the inevitable 4-putt... 

[Bill Seitz]

The 5th at Crystal Downs has to be included.

Jud, far be it for me to disagree with both you and the Good Doctor - the 5th is a fun, quirky hole no doubt but nothing a bombed tee shot can't solve today. 

At least until the inevitable 4-putt... 

I think I only three putted the fifth if you don't count the chips back on to the green after putting off the green as "putts". 

[Jeff Bertch]

I personally like the boomerang-shaped 15th better than the 16th at Cypress Point. 150 yards and much more playable.


I'm not sure if it is his original design, but the 16th at California Golf Club at San Francisco is also a very special hole!
Around 140 yards; 20 - 25 foot drop to a well bunkered green. Bunkering similar to the 13th at Cypress Point. Angle is similar to the 12th at ANGC.

[Neil_Crafter]

Sidney
Nice idea.
The 7th at Royal Adelaide is essentially the same hole that was there before Mackenzie and was retained, think you need to go for ones that are clearly his, and the 3rd certainly is and is a far more interesting hole to boot.
Any Mac composite should have a number of holes from his UK courses too.
cheers Neil

[James Boon]

Sidney,

Nice idea for a thread, though making it a par 72 seems a little restricting... Let it be what it is (as long as it meets Dr Mack's rules of course    )

If only played a handful of Mackenzie courses here in the UK, but I'd put these forwards for consideration:

Par 3s
10th Moortown
17th Littlestone
17th Blairgowrie (Rosemount)

Par 4s
5th Alwoodley
3rd Cavendish
10th Cavendish
2nd Blairgowrie (Wee)

Par 5s
8th Alwoodley

Most of these may not be as famous as some of his American or Australian work, but I think they are worthy of consideration?

Cheers,

James

[Paul Jones]

James,

Where is Moortown?

[Paul Jones]

I found it and will reference this picture of Hole 10 from the website

Website is here - http://www.moortown-golf-club.co.uk

It looks fantastic.

Paul

[Bill_McBride]

I found it and will reference this picture of Hole 10 from the website

Website is here - http://www.moortown-golf-club.co.uk

It looks fantastic.

Paul

Moortown is very close to Alwoodley, Mackenzie's first design.   I don't have a photo, but the 11th at Alwoodley is a lot like "Gibraltar" here at Moortown.  Beautiful par 3s.

[Anthony Butler]

6th at NSW
15th at Kingston Heath

As Scott said, when Mackenzie left NSW with his plan golfers walked from the current fifth green to the seventh tee...

I would submit the 14th and the 16th as the best original Mackenzie holes at NSWGC.

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