[Mike Feeney]

Very difficult not to be impressed with C&C -- thoughtful golf tradition-sensitive designs and they both appear to be humble and philanthropic -- see below.

How common is this (zero profit) endeavour in the golf design biz?

Coore & Crenshaw Takes “Zero Profit” Job to Design Trinity Forest GC (Dallas)

January 14, 2013
   
The 18-hole championship course for an exclusive new club that is being planned for one of the poorest sections of Dallas is being touted as a win-win for the city’s golf community, as well as for its economic revival.

Coore & Crenshaw, the Austin, Texas-based golf course architecture firm headed by Bill Coore and two-time Masters champion Ben Crenshaw, has been selected to direct the design of the proposed Trinity Forest Golf Course, according to a golf blog posting in the Dallas Morning News.

Trinity Forest, a project being led by AT&T and Southern Methodist University, will feature an 18-hole championship course built on 400 acres of city-owned land in south Dallas, one of the city’s poorest sections. Backers of the project say they want to have the new course bring the Byron Nelson Championship, currently sponsored by HP and scheduled to be played in May 2013 at the TPC Four Seasons Resort Las Colinas in the Dallas suburb of Irving, where it has been played since 1983, into the city. AT&T will become the tournament’s title sponsor in 2015.

Project backers, which include Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings, also tout the development of Trinity Forest as a key to the economic revival of that part of the city (http://www.clubandresortbusiness.com/2012/12/10/south-dallas-texas-plans-golf-course/).

The course will be privately owned by a non-profit organization that will lease land from the city, the Morning News reported, and then sell memberships that are expected to be “pricey and exclusive.”

Many golf course architectural firms expressed interest in doing the design, which will convert an old and unused landfill site along the Trinity River, despite AT&T senior vice president Ron Spears’ insistence in an interview with the Morning News that the firm selected won’t be able to make a profit on the job. In announcing that Coore & Crenshaw had been selected, Carol Reed, a spokeswoman for the project, said the firm would abide by the zero-profit terms Spears laid out.

The course is expected to open by 2016, which the Morning News saw as an indication that much of the initial planning about who the designer might be had already been discussed before a public announcement about the course was made.

In a brief statement, Crenshaw said it was an honor to be selected, while his partner reflected on the site itself.

“The site is interesting; it has great character and is inherently appealing for classic golf. It has the potential to yield an outstanding golf course,” said Bill Coore.

Courses designed by Coore & Crenshaw include Bandon Trails and Bandon Preserve in Oregon, Friar’s Head Golf Club on New York’s Long Island, Streamsong Resort in Florida, Austin (Texas) Golf Club and The Sand Hills Golf Club in Nebraska. The firm was also involved in the recent restoration of the Donald Ross-designed Pinehurst #2 in North Carolina, site of the 2014 U.S. Open.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Intentionally not so much....unintentionally, quite a lot!

Seriously most pro bono/non profit work is done on the front end, where clients have little trouble asking architects to come up with free plans to show them what they might do with the property.  But the winner of the competition does get paid.

In some cases, like First Tee, architects do work for a non profit fee throughout the project.  I think some University courses were similar (Pete Dye did Purdue for $1) or at least discounted fees by alumni of the program.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Depends what zero-profit means I guess?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

A “pricey and exclusive” club in the poorest sections of Dallas. A win-win scenario? For whom?

[Frank Pont]

I work pro bono for the clubs I am a member of.

I also usually have one pro bono project at a time, for clubs that cannot afford me but I am still keen to do work for, because I really like the club. Currently I am working pro bono for Amsterdam Old Course, a Colt/Alison course near Amsterdam, that keeps losing parts of its site to the surrounding railways. They have gone down from 18 to 9 holes, and I now again have to redesign 3 holes to make another land loss work.

I had also offered via Masa Nishijima to do pro bono work for golf clubs in Japan after the earthquake/tsunami disaster, but there were no opportunities.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In the good old US of A, I think a number of architects charged high fees for courses devastated by Katrina.  No discounts for those who really need the services!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Is zero profit the same as pro bono?

If C & C's guys are paid, and I'm guessing they will be, and if C & C get their expenses paid and receive some sort of daily rate for their time, is that pro bono, zero profit or both?

I don't know the deal, but I wonder if giving a break to AT & T is really the best use of one's pro bono time. Do doctors and lawyers do pro bono work for the needy, or for one of the world's largest companies? Something smells fishy to me.

I'm all for helping those who need help, but C & C are doing no favors for those of us trying to make a living by doing some sort of zero profit or pro bono work for one of the richest companies in the US.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

I agree and you are right that there is a difference.  I agree its never good for the rest of us when CC or the bigs drop their fee for the "good of the game."

While doing it for ATT and Dallas, given the larger goals of the project, it might make sense.  Wonder if Rees worked cheap at East Lake in Atlanta, which is the prototype project for this?

Also, I guess CC sure wants to do a new project in Texas.  In the past, a tough site like this one isn't something they would usually take on.  My concern with the no profit thing is whether the land fill, flood plain and other specialists they must intertwine with will be working low cost?  Somehow, I doubt it, and it sure looks like it could be a tougher than usual project.

[David_Elvins]

I think this has been discussed in here before but I really don't understand this one at all. 

Course and Clubhouse on a landfill would be what, $15-25 million? 

Design fees - $500,000-$1million?

Profit on design fees - $100,000- $200,000

So the architect forgoes profit to reduce the cost of the project by 0.5-1%.

I don't get it. 

Not to mention that if the design firm is also the construction firm then the real profit is in the $5mil+ construction contract, not the $0.5mil design contract. 

[Tom_Doak]

I think this has been discussed in here before but I really don't understand this one at all. 

Course and Clubhouse on a landfill would be what, $15-25 million? 

Design fees - $500,000-$1million?

Profit on design fees - $100,000- $200,000

So the architect forgoes profit to reduce the cost of the project by 0.5-1%.

I don't get it. 

Not to mention that if the design firm is also the construction firm then the real profit is in the $5mil+ construction contract, not the $0.5mil design contract. 

David:

I don't have any idea of the terms of the contract just signed, but I do know that Coore & Crenshaw's shapers are all independent contractors who bill out their time at a daily rate, so there would not be any "profit" to them for the "construction contract".

My company is a bit different in that the guys are employees, but I'll say the end result is similar, nothing winds up in my pockets from our shaping work.

I do think it's disingenuous of A T & T to suggest that their primary motivation for building a high-end facility for business entertainment is "charity". 

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,

I won't say golf architects should work for "free", but if so it doesn't seem like this project (with pricey memberships) is the right situation to do it.

I would rather folks like C&C do their version of a project like Tom Doak did with Common Ground in Denver.

By the way, I believe Robert Trent Jones essentially worked pro bono on the Cashen course at Ballybunion. All he got was the 12 memberships he asked for to give to friends.

[David_Elvins]

David:

I don't have any idea of the terms of the contract just signed, but I do know that Coore & Crenshaw's shapers are all independent contractors who bill out their time at a daily rate, so there would not be any "profit" to them for the "construction contract".

My company is a bit different in that the guys are employees, but I'll say the end result is similar, nothing winds up in my pockets from our shaping work.

Thanks Tom, I did not mean to suggest this was the case with this course.  just that it was a possibility.

I do think it's disingenuous of A T & T to suggest that their primary motivation for building a high-end facility for business entertainment is "charity".  

I also think it is poor that it appears that the designer seems to be penalised, not because the development cannot afford to pay, but because  not paying can be twisted into good PR.  Anway, free will, free market, etc etc.  

[Mike_Young]

I don't know the details of the project but if it is a municipal project and the City is involved, I would wager that insisting on pro bono eliminated the need for a bidding procedure whereby it could become one big mess.  As all of us know when it comes to muni projects, you almost always know upfront if they want you or not and if some guy cuts the price and starts a fuss then they either rebid or have to justify the Request for Proposal in some manner.  I would bet the AT&T guy knew this and knew a couple of firms he would consider and went about it in this way.  JMO

[Tim Martin]

Pete Dye donated the design for Wintonbury Hills to the city of Bloomfield Connecticut for $1.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I don't know the details, but I would not call it philanthropic

Tim
Pete may have donated his time, but not his crew's time

I'm aware of an architect who donated his fee in exchange for a contribution to a charity on a renovation project - primarily because his uncle was given the project originally which may have been his first

Cheers

[Jeff Bertch]

I think some University courses were similar (Pete Dye did Purdue for $1) or at least discounted fees by alumni of the program.

Mr. Dye donated his time for $1. I think around $4 or 5 million was needed to build the course (my guess is that includes the money allotted to his crew for their work). He was very influential in raising the funds for the project. Mr. Dye actually tells a pretty good story about this.

When I worked in French Lick, Mr. Dye also told me that he gave Indiana University the same offer, but they have yet to raise the money.

[Tim Martin]

I don't know the details, but I would not call it philanthropic

Tim
Pete may have donated his time, but not his crew's time

I'm aware of an architect who donated his fee in exchange for a contribution to a charity on a renovation project - primarily because his uncle was given the project originally which may have been his first

Cheers

www.newenglandgolf.com/features/dye-opening-583.htm

[Jason Thurman]

A “pricey and exclusive” club in the poorest sections of Dallas. A win-win scenario? For whom?

White People are the first winner, and the second winner is anyone holding this BINGO card.

[Philippe Binette]

Over the last 3-4 years, I would say a lot of architects would have loved to work for no profit, just to pay their salary and keep their staff. just to have work to do.

[Frank Pont]

maybe I'm missing something, but in my definition Pro Bono means for FREE not for NO PROFIT

[jeffwarne]

maybe I'm missing something, but in my definition Pro Bono means for FREE not for NO PROFIT

Agreed
Sort've like AT&T's involvement in the event isn't "pro bono" (their efforts buy valuable PR, advertising, and promotion of products)

and CEO's of the First Tee making 750K for a "nonprofit"-which is certainly one way to make sure your organization meets the definition

The real shame is that if the firm really IS working pro bono, it's being poorly reported, but I'm guessing the firm's savvy enough not to work pro bono for a "pricey and exclusive" development  (exclusive is a REALLY poor word choice by whoever's using it-given where it's being built)

[Nigel Islam]

I think some University courses were similar (Pete Dye did Purdue for $1) or at least discounted fees by alumni of the program.

Mr. Dye donated his time for $1. I think around $4 or 5 million was needed to build the course (my guess is that includes the money allotted to his crew for their work). He was very influential in raising the funds for the project. Mr. Dye actually tells a pretty good story about this.

When I worked in French Lick, Mr. Dye also told me that he gave Indiana University the same offer, but they have yet to raise the money.

The IU course probably needs some work to get up to rest of the Big Ten.

[Andy Stamm]

I think some University courses were similar (Pete Dye did Purdue for $1) or at least discounted fees by alumni of the program.

Mr. Dye donated his time for $1. I think around $4 or 5 million was needed to build the course (my guess is that includes the money allotted to his crew for their work). He was very influential in raising the funds for the project. Mr. Dye actually tells a pretty good story about this.

When I worked in French Lick, Mr. Dye also told me that he gave Indiana University the same offer, but they have yet to raise the money.

The IU course probably needs some work to get up to rest of the Big Ten.

The IU course needs work to get up to the standards of the California Penal League never mind the Big 10. If that bit about Dye is true, I'm extremely disappointed.

10 years back or so there was talk of adding a Nicklaus course and keeping what's there. The description was about as bad as it gets stressing a modern course with water hazards and nice cart paths, but at least it was something. That fell through, but they've got to come up with something.

[BHoover]

I believe that Nicklaus did the renovation design work at OSU Scarlet for $1. The cost of the renovation was paid for by private donation(s) to the university.

[Jeff Bertch]

The IU course needs work to get up to the standards of the California Penal League never mind the Big 10. If that bit about Dye is true, I'm extremely disappointed.

Andy,

I agree with you completely. It was the worst course I played in college golf. My coach joked that is was the only place you wanted to hit the ball past the hole. "If you had a downhill putt, you had a chance to get it to the hole."

Are you a Hoosier?

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