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J Cabarcos

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Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« on: January 14, 2013, 12:00:27 PM »
I am curious to know why World Woods tandem is often mentioned as a top Central Florida pick without ever giving the slightest mention to include its next door neighbor The Dunes Golf Club, f/k/a The Dunes of Seville ?

Luckily for me, my experience playing nearby WW Rolling Oaks was so pedestrian that I starting seeking out other options besides the rightfully regarded Pine Barrens.  Well, my curiosity lead me to the Dunes of Seville which was literally within a five mile radius from WW.   After having the pleasure of playing that course late last year, I was amazed at how such a course laid out under sweeping and magnificent varied sandy terrain has virtually gone undetected by those outside of town.  Simply put, it was a shame.

I can only speculate that the out of town golfer would take issue with conditioning that is not at the level of Pine Barrens.  If that was the case, they are missing out on playing a course blessed with phenomenal topography, which require a nice variety of tailoring shots and a deft putter.  It may not be pristine in condition but the bones are there.  The greens are not stimping above ten, but they could not be because they are bold, titled and I dare said very MacKenzien. 

Could it also be that everybody has an opinion over a Fazio design such as WW, but that an Arthur Hill effort fails to stir the blood?  God knows the man is not the source of much affection here at the GCA.  But doesn't it speak volumes that the architect of this golf course at one point in the nearby past was actively trying to purchase the course which he contemplated to be best parcel of land given for him to work?

Brooksville, Florida may be somewhat remote from Orlando or Tampa, however WW has never been forgotten.  I say if WW year after year has demonstrated the ability to draw continuous attention and golfers, why shouldn't The Dunes Golf Club? Maybe the answer is to have the wealthy Japanese conglomerate who owns WW buy the Dunes Golf Club.   Central Florida is getting a lot of golf architecture attention with Streamsong.  Perhaps WW can join the mix with a great addition of their own which has been in shadows for far too long.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:04:16 PM »
Loved it when I played there.  Was in really bad condition back then, and had the "smell of death" about the place, but otherwise, I agree it deserves more attention.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 12:09:23 PM »
My first play was at least 10 years ago, my last time was 2010 -  I think I know what Jeff means about the smell of death, but the air and the course itself has freshened up.

Just a peaceful, fun course to play.


p.s. play on the course seems to have picked up significantly from mid 2000s. Used to be nearly empty on a weekday afternoon. Last few times I was there it was hard to finish before dark.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:21:11 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David Kelly

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 12:10:02 PM »
Loved it when I played there.  Was in really bad condition back then, and had the "smell of death" about the place, but otherwise, I agree it deserves more attention.
Had similar experience but only played it once in the mid-90s. The smell of death rings true.  It was also the type of place that still sold La Monde shirts in bags. It wasn't in good condition but they had left the dunes part of the course alone so that part was pretty wild.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 12:31:28 PM »
I didn't ignore the Dunes Club!  It was part of many courses I put up in this thread a few years back:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43494.0.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

J_ Crisham

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 12:34:02 PM »
I played here last March a day after WW. Two of the  guys in my group thought the bones of the course was better than Pine Barrens. The bunkering is better IMO and the par 3's were very solid. Conditioning of the fairways was spotty. Greens were very good. If their budget was better they could have a hell of a following. Definitely worth playing if one is on the way to Black Diamond from Tampa.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 12:40:07 PM »
John Cullum included the Dunes Club in the 2008 GCA Dixie Cup he organized, and it was very well received.  Course conditions then weren't quite as good as Pine Barrens, but were ok.  I didn't think the course was very well-marketed.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 01:53:12 PM »
I think the answer is that most of us visited World Woods years ago when The Dunes was troubled, and haven't gone back since.  I did not even see the course on my one trip up there, because I was told it was failing.

Plus, one won the GOLF DIGEST best new award, and the other didn't place.  Funny how long-lasting that first impression has been, and how little many people are willing to look past it.


Michael Whitaker

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 02:09:20 PM »
Here are some comments and pictures from the 2008 Dixie Cup:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38198.0/
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 08:47:16 PM »
The Dunes has been mentioned in a number of threads over the years.  I really like several of the holes, including 18, which has some great centerline trouble.

The drive in to the course does put a bit of a damper on the experience; the "temporary" clubhouse and the many empty cul de sacs really give the impression that the course was built at the wrong time.  The contrast between the quality of course and the lack of ambiance is as stark as anywhere I've been.

WW

Tony Ristola

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 08:23:59 AM »
The Dunes/Seville was featured in John Strawn's Driving the Green. Because of the book I visited there (and Ironhorse) around 1997. Was greatly disappointed. The place seemed to have been constructed with little love, and some of the work seemed hostile to the property. There were a few bright moments, but not many.

There was a thread on these courses back in 2002.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4772.msg91457.html#msg91457


« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 08:40:20 AM by Tony Ristola »

Mike Hendren

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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 12:18:30 PM »
I would not describe the overall feel of my November 2011 visit to The Dunes as place with the "smell of death," but rather their was a feel to the place that I would describe as smelling with the stench of mediocrity.  Sort of akin to that of your typical local muni which get overlooked by everyone but the golfers in the neighborhood.

In fact I found much parallels with the local muni.  The overall conditioning of the course was of the level of regular muni, very playable, but not worthy of inspiring a sole glowing comment.  The greens fees were certainly like those of a muni.  If I recall, I paid around $27 bucks including a bucket of balls.  The amount of staff on the property was sparse, two clubhouse attendants, a starter, a single cart girl and one ranger.  The golfers on the premise were all local duffers and quite of portion of those retirees. 

Having said all that, once you start your golf round at the Dunes, the comparisons to your local muni end.  From the first tee forward you have sweeping vistas, very appreciable elevation changes, challenging greens with much slope and movement, unique holes (No. 10 which has the remnants of multiple bomb out craters. No. 18 which tempts you with lots of direct line danger), four of the nicest par threes in Central Florida, and an overall abundance of holes with multiple strategic options to attack the greens.   If there was a flaw in the design, I would concur with a GCA'er which identified the duplicity of right to left and left to right fairways with angled sand dunes fly overs.  But overall, the Dunes was a stellar golfing experience which calls me to play it over and over.  Too bad I don't live close enough.

My hope is that one day in the nearby future someone with an appreciation of the course and the means to return the course to a respectable level of prominence will step in to reclaim the Dunes to its rightfully place atop golf courses in Central Florida.

Tony Ristola

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 04:35:38 AM »
I think the answer is that most of us visited World Woods years ago when The Dunes was troubled, and haven't gone back since.  I did not even see the course on my one trip up there, because I was told it was failing.

Plus, one won the GOLF DIGEST best new award, and the other didn't place.  Funny how long-lasting that first impression has been, and how little many people are willing to look past it.


Like many here, I'd played the course in the 90's after reading Driving the Green and came away less than impressed. The routing was good... beyond that there was much to recommend, though I do recall a couple holes that were interesting.

There are a couple lessons here for developers.

1. Do a great job and do it cost effectively.

2. A poor reputation is difficult to overcome. It's much as Warren Buffett stated... When a management with a reputation for brilliance tackles a business with a reputation for bad economics, it is the reputation of the business that remains intact.

3. Keep staff costs lean. In one article I read they have 21 people on staff. Probably a mix of part and full-time.

As for Pt. 1, the course was built for a song; the original greens were push-up and beyond clearing, shaping and irrigation there wasn't much done, and what was done seemed to lack a loving touch (back in the 90's; can't say today after the course had be overhauled). Being in a somewhat remote area, you would think the land prices weren't over the top.

You would think... for the right price someone should be able to make it work. If investors can make a go of it in a remote area in central Florida with 36-holes in a mining area... :)


This was interesting too... seems a lot of the boom development has helped price golf out of the range for many.
Quote

"There's no doubt about it," Carson said. "Everyone was relying on older people to keep their business up. The trouble is, they're all dying off and the young people aren't taking up the game."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/bad-economy-storm-damage-combine-to-close-dunes-golf-course-in-hernando/2115270





« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 04:51:13 AM by Tony Ristola »

Ronald Montesano

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Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Adam Clayman

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Re: Why is World Woods' neighbor forgotten?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 03:16:13 PM »
I've been outspoken about The Dunes. Even chronicled the changes made over the years. This winter we played there the most. It was in great shape for the sophisticated F&F aficionado.

I'm a bit surprised they are closing. The story I had heard was the owner sold the property at the height, bought it back at the depths, and netted a tidy difference.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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