Architecture and Maintenance Meld Quesitons

[Mac Plumart]

While trying to wrap my mind around architectural intent and daily course presentation, I keep recalling my one round at Crystal Downs.  And make no mistake about it, I thought/think The Downs is really a great golf course.  However, seeing how the course is maintained does bring to my mind some questions.  And to get answers and/or reach conclusions, I need some help from you guys.

For starters, here is hole one from the tee box.





And, of note, these photos were cut and pasted from Dan Moore's thread on Crystal Downs.  And I added the lines and circles to those photos to illustrate the areas I have questions.


Standing there on the first tee, the most natural instinct would normally be to go right at the green.  However, the rough that is grown up in that direct line would seem to dissuade people from taking that line.  




Question #1--Do you think the architect of the golf course wanted the rough to be designed this way?

I ask this question because it seems to me that the way the fronting slope on the green and the bunkers lurking long on that line and into that angled green seems like a sucker play.  It seems to me the architect might have thought to himself, "yeah, go ahead, fire right at this green.  With that angle and those bunkers and slopes, if you aren't spot on...you are punished!"

But with that rough in the line, people are dissuaded from doing that.  And will come out more right of that line.  Which actually seems like the correct angle to approach from, as the green seems to open up.



But that brings up question #2...Should that grass be grown up around that bunker?  It seems that bunker is there to catch golfers trying to get on that perfect angle, but who've hit shots that roll out just a smidge too much.




And, finally, question #3...with the way the greensite is maintained, does that eliminate the need to those bunkers?  And also that fronting ridge?  It seems all the design is negated with the long rough, which is a penalty in and of itself.





So, I guess I'm wondering if you eliminate all that rough...does the hole become better?

Without rough up the left side, you are tempted to go straight at the green.

But if short-grass surrounded that green, the bunkers become a real hazard for shots not staying on the green and shots that are short are funneling down that hill/slope to the front of the green.

And, the smart player could open up that green with a shot out to the right...but if they aren't careful, they could end up in the bunker.


Thoughts?

And could someone help with yardage to figure if these concepts are even relevant?

[Mike_Young]

Mac,
From my times playing CD I seem to recall that green accepting an approach much better from the left side than the right.  A shot from the right side is going to move right to left quickly once it releases on the green surface where a shot from the left will have much less movement.  But I could be wrong.  And doesn't the right side FWY bunker work for hole #2 also?  JMO

[Mac Plumart]

Mike...I don't have answers...just asking questions...and thinking out loud.

You are saying, coming up the left is a better angle because the green will hold your shot better...correct?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mike...I don't have answers...just asking questions...and thinking out loud.

You are saying, coming up the left is a better angle because the green will hold your shot better...correct?

Mac, yes, I think this is what Mike is saying.

I similarly suggested that the ideal line may be well to the right, but Tom Doak and Brian Sleeman both suggested that unless you hit a fade one would always prefer to approach from the left. 

I wonder, though, if this was the original design intent.

[RJ_Daley]

One would think that almost certainly a photo exists from the 1930s or so depicting the view from the first tee down the fairway.  As a matter of fact, I seem to remember someone did in fact post such an historic photo at one time here on GCA.com.  That still may not answer what the Good DR. had in mind for the maintenance meld relative to the width and mowing line of the rough up the left side.  But, the down-slope stance that one gets on that side is also a factor. But, I don't know from any personal experience.  The only two times I played that hole, I was just next to the beginning of the right side bunker on the FW side, and the other time a big slice put me to the right of the right bunker in the hay. 

I think the maintenace meld choice of how wide the rough should be on the downslope left is critical.  Obviously, you can't spin the ball easily to stop, should you land on the green for your second from the rough and bounding through gives you a couple chances to catch one of the bunkers for what I remember is a down hill to the green bunker blast with plenty of runoff to the left off the green again.  While it looks like an inviting handshake opener, it is a tricky little bugger, IIRC.

[Grant Saunders]

I would really like to see the short grass extend to the base of the slope on the left of the green in this photo.

To me, the semi rough up close to the green makes the greensite feel pinched and creates a look of the green sitting squarer. If the short grass carried on wider at the green, it could accentuate the front right to back left angle of the green.

Not sure if any of this fits in with what your asking Mac but it is something that stands out to me in the photo.

[Frank Pont]

Mac, well spotted questions. I had also noiced in earlier posts on CD how much rough there was around the fairways and greens.

Q1: No
Q2: No
Q3: these bunkers still play a role, but far less than when the left front of the green had short grass

In general I have noticed on many of the classic US courses that Joe Bausch sends me for GAP.com that there isn,t enough short grass around the greens and the fairways are to narrow.....

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

Your teleprompter analysis seems based on assuming the course is flat, though I know you know better.  Everything on that hole is about the slope of the green from back to front and right to left.  It's the right to left part that's most important.  That's why you'd rather approach from the left ... whether you are hitting a 4-wood or a chip shot.

 If you're in the bunkers on the right and the hole is cut anywhere but the front left of the green, it's hard just to get the ball out onto the green, much less to attack the hole.  75% of shots FROM GOOD PLAYERS are going to go off the green left, and partway down the hill.  Do you want to exacerbate that by mowing short grass down the bank?  There are already enough people who pick up and walk away there.

My understanding is that the Downs was built with no rough at all ... all the ground was mowed at fairway height, but fairway height in the 1930's being around 3/4 of an inch.  I would have loved to play the course in those conditions, but we know what kind of Conditioning score that would get them in GOLF DIGEST, and they are now much too focused on their ranking.  With bentgrass fairways mowed tight, a small club like the Downs has to limit the fairway acreage.  I don't think the mowing lines are great -- in fact Mike DeVries and I painted out where we thought the mowing lines should change this summer -- and it would be much wider and not so squiggly, but in fact I had to keep trying to remind Mike to consider the costs of making it so wide.

[Jud_T]

 If you're in the bunkers on the right and the hole is cut anywhere but the front left of the green, it's hard just to get the ball out onto the green, much less to attack the hole.  75% of shots FROM GOOD PLAYERS are going to go off the green left, and partway down the hill.  Do you want to exacerbate that by mowing short grass down the bank? 

Politics aside, why not?  If you ended up in the right greenside bunker you've made a serious mistake either in strategy or execution or a combo of the two.  It's called a penalty for a reason...    That actually sounds like a really fun, nerve-racking recovery shot to try and get up and down from below and left, particularly once you know the penalty for being above the hole.  Plus wouldn't that bring the Texas wedge option back into play?

[Grant Saunders]

 If you're in the bunkers on the right and the hole is cut anywhere but the front left of the green, it's hard just to get the ball out onto the green, much less to attack the hole.  75% of shots FROM GOOD PLAYERS are going to go off the green left, and partway down the hill.  Do you want to exacerbate that by mowing short grass down the bank?  There are already enough people who pick up and walk away there.

Is this a function of the slope or has the speed of the greens become too great for the contours?

The idea of people picking their ball up and walking the first hole of the round doesnt seem hugely appealing.

[Frank Pont]

Tom, what would the increased mowing costs be as a percentage of the total budget of CD? I would guess less than 2%. Given the importance of fairwaylines I would think its worth it, save money in non core areas....

[Mike Policano]

Frank,

I know from your work that I visited in Holland that you are an advocate of wider fairways where appropriate and that you have much experience on the topic.

We have been expanding the fairways at our 1929 course. The cost issues we have in expanding the fairways are as follows.

First, our fairways are poa and our roughs are rye and bluegrass. Furthermore, our first cut is slightly different than the rough. Expanding the fairway requires addressing the first cut. Then we have the decision of buying sod for the fairway or mowing out the rough gradually to fairway height. Our rough is at 3.0" and our fairways at .375".

Since our fairways are poa, there actually isn't poa fairway sod to buy. Unless we take sod from the front of fairways, we mow out the rough. It takes us two full years to get the mowed out rough to be as playable as the existing fairway and a couple more years for the poa to take over and blend in. During the first two years we repeatedly aerate and apply increased fertilizer and chemical applications. Invariably some parts of the mowed rough don't work and we have to sod patch bare sections. Our super has devised a formula used to estimate the addtional input costs on an annual basis. This is obviously a lay person's understanding of the additional costs we face when recapturing our original fairway width.

Cheers, Mike

[Bradley Anderson]

I have done three irrigation installations in my career and in every case it was me and the project foreman flagging where the sprinklers should go ahead of the installation crew. His input is to keep his cost of trenching down, and my input is to keep heads away from hollows or hillsides, and to balance the look of the hole.

That's probably how most of the irrigation systems were designed way back in the day. So the layout of the fairway evolved to fit where a superintendent and an irrigation contractor decided it should be.

If I was flagging a single row of sprinklers here I probably would have taken the exact same line. I would not have shot strait for the green because then the fairway bunker on the right would be too far from the fairway. By moving the second, third and forth sprinklers to the right, I tie the fairway in much better with the fairway bunker and the hole has a much more balanced look from the tee.