[Chris Kane]

Angel Cabrera.  There will be dozens more but you asked for one.

Fair enough. How about one who caddied at a British or American club which mandated caddies?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

When you caddied at TOC did you conceive of unique or unconventional ways to play the holes or certain shots ?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

When you caddied at TOC did you conceive of unique or unconventional ways to play the holes or certain shots ?

Unique, as in, I'm the first guy ever to think of it in 200 years?  Probably not.

But the experience did give me an eye for things very different to what I saw playing it myself.  The most interesting rounds were caddying for two players (actually 3) who I don't think had ever played a full round of golf before in their lives.  One was a guy from Japan who seemed to have only hit balls on the driving range; the other two were sisters from California who took turns playing the holes playing alongside their parents and an uncle.  I found that as long as I could keep them out of the bunkers, they could play the course just fine. 

It was mostly not as hard as it sounds.  They had all hit balls on the range enough that they had a reasonably repeating swing and shot pattern.  So, the first hole has no bunkers, and the second you just have to avoid the right side ... no problems there ... giving me a couple of holes to sort them out.  [One of my own designs, Quail Crossing, has two bunkerless holes to start in honor of this idea.]  Then at the third there is a bunker 100 yards in front of the tee that is one of the scariest on The Old Course for that particular kind of player.  So, I did learn that different hazards could be meaningless for one player but very important for another.  And that bunker was probably of significance for better players in the days of the featherie, if not the gutty ball.

The other great thing I learned from St. Andrews is that there are two sides to every slope.  For instance, the mounds that guard the front left of the second green are a hindrance if you have to pitch over them with your second or third shot ... but they have little effect on a long running approach going up and over them ... and they are actually a backstop for your third shot if you just remember to be sure to get past them with your second.  [Maybe Martin Hawtree can fix that weakness.]  St. Andrews is pretty unusual in that there are a lot of places where it's better to be over the green than short, because there are a lot of hole locations which slope away from the line of play.  Oakmont is another example, but at Oakmont you're in three-inch rough behind the green, instead of fairway.

Sending people into the "wrong" fairways on #14 and sometimes on #13 was a hard hurdle to get over mentally ... it's one of the reasons they have that local rule that "homeward players have the right of way".  Sometimes the best play on #4 is over into #15, too, if your golfer can't reach the green in two, but you've got to be careful about doing that because of the same local rule.  There was also one hole where I could never figure out a really good idea on the tee shot for most people ... #12.  I've seen that hole screw up a lot of great players since, including Tom Watson in 1988, until they all started driving it over the green like Tiger.

[David_Elvins]

One was a guy from Japan who seemed to have only hit balls on the driving range; the other two were sisters from California who took turns playing the holes playing alongside their parents and an uncle.  I found that as long as I could keep them out of the bunkers, they could play the course just fine. 

I am sure I have mentioned this before but playing Barnbougle Dunes with a guy who had never played golf before was an amazing experience.  The bunker on the 4th was the only thing that got him into trouble and he negotiated the rest of the course successfully.

It is an under-rated feature of truly great courses, IMO. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom Doak,

Do you think caddies are better equiped to understand architecture because they see the game from all perspectives and not just one perspective, as most golfers do ?

Yes.  Caddies understand that golfers are all over the place, and that those golfers have all sorts of different skills to try and utilize.  They don't think of one "right" way to play the hole -- even if the architect tried to design a "right way".  Caddies have to think of a different one for different players.

Even if his score will be higher, isn't it more interesting to allow the golfer to discover a course for himself and develop his own strategies. 

Mark:

A really good caddy will be able to figure out exactly what, if anything, the player is looking for in terms of advice on the course (and they'll figure it out pretty quickly).  Some players want the guidance, some don't.

Sven

[paul cowley]

I have never caddied but I do estimate the cost of labor as a living.  Don't you work the same amount of time, have the same level of training and experience and require the same amount of equipment if you double or single bag?  The only cost to the caddie that I see is wear and tear on his body. By using a factor of 1.25 I estimate that a caddie who double bags will need to be replaced sooner which will increase my training costs. Please note that any additional work the caddie is doing will be rewarded with considerable additional compensation. Any monies that the caddie receives over the 1.25 factor is pure gravy for him.

What factor would you use?

1.35

[Ally Mcintosh]

I am telling you this a cultural thing:

Mark Saltzman says "wouldn't it be better to let a golfer work out his own strategies" and everyone presumes that he's going to take a caddy but doesn't want him to give advice hence a low tip....

Niall Carlton says "I just don't want to have a caddy mandated on me" and people respond by presuming that not having a caddy mandated on you means that the course needs to have carts...

What I believe both these gentlemen meant was that they want to carry their own bag. I am in total agreement.

I am all for caddy programs. I am sure caddies offer a lot to everyone and I have in the past enjoyed chatting more to my opponent's caddy than I have my opponent himself (even though I prefer there to be no caddy and no cart in the group so that I do actually get the chance to talk to the opposition). I just want the choice. And if there is no choice, let there be no caddies.

I am with Niall when he says the idea of turning up at a course and being FORCED to part with an extra $100+ to take a caddy you don't want makes him want to buy a cat just to kick around the room.

NOTE: As Streamsong doesn't do this, I suppose we are in the wrong thread.

[Kris Shreiner]

Caddie contributions to the game are FAR more than a merely a source of top players. That said, while we are looking for recent evidence there,  I'll add to 2-time Major Winner Angel..., Andres Romero, 2008 PGA Rookie of the Year...another from the caddie ranks in Argentina...guess there's something in the water down there? Current European Tour Pro Ritchie Ramesy (SP?) won a U. S. Amateur in '06 or '07 ? I believe, using a Taylor Made putter he was given earlier that year by a U.S. golfer when he CADDIED at Royal Aberdeen! A top player from China also got his start caddying. This, despite the fact that women comprise a majority of their caddie staffs over there.  Several recent Indian professionals arrived from the caddie ranks of that nation. There are many others...from all over the globe.

Think about that. Despite the fact ALL the major administrative bodies of golf have largely abandoned any serious effort to support this avenue, it CONTINUES to produce champions! Imagine if the game actually did what it SHOULD...re-invest, where financially viable, in supporting a titanic, consistent contributor to the game.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but MANY who find the game as a caddie DO in fact take up the game! How does that stifle numbers? Again, only a fraction of total courses have caddies, so the cost to play MOST courses isn't impacted one pence by the caddie dymanic!

It's ALWAYS been that way. It's not important that ANY who find the game as a caddie become big-time professionals. But is is impressive when they do.  Folks from the caddie ranks populate many of the various professions, in golf and beyond. Many stay in the game. Never losing the fever, and lure of the links. They bring others into the game. Many caddies are from modest means and NEVER would have been exposed to the sport, particularly in emerging golf nation's with limited fields of play, save those affluent enough to participate. That is how it has been historically. I see little evidence that will change anytime soon.

In the end, it comes down to choice. One should always have a choice if possible. That said, certain golf experiences, given their "cultural" ethos, have higher presentation levels and expectations. If you wish to sample them...there is a price. Whether you wish to pay that price is really what is at play. Step up, or play elsewhere. It's that simple.

Tom Doak,

Thank you for contributing your take.

Cheers,
Kris

 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kris, I really admire your energy in promoting caddy programs and I am genuinely interested to seeing it work in person when I get the chance... I would love to have the financial and social freedom myself to spend a summer caddying at a great course.... So I do have a great respect for the profession... And I am sure that you can learn a lot about golf and life by partaking at a young age...

But let me ask you something... What makes you think Ritchie Ramsay "found" the game through caddying? Perhaps he did but I think it more likely that he just caddied because he loved the game, enjoyed it, needed a bit of money etc... He was probably already a good player when he started... Just speculating.... As you know, those in Scotland don't need to be affluent to play the game and get good at it..

I would genuinely like to know how many caddies take the job with no interest whatsoever in golf and end up falling in love and playing. I expect those numbers differ wildly between UK and US but I imagine them to be pretty low in both...

EDIT - Just noted that Ramsay started playing golf at Hazlehead age 5 before becoming good and being advised to join a higher profile links course to continue his development (Royal Aberdeen).... Coincidentally the same two clubs I started out at... Actualy the only group I played with last year that had a caddie attached was at Trump... My opponent had a 17 year old caddie - played at Royal Aberdeen off 2... This was his first caddying job. Think he'd already found the game too...

[Mark Chaplin]

Compulsory caddies reduce the cost to those who would take a caddie through the payments of those who wouldn't.

Kris - my understanding is Ritchie Ramsay caddied as a international standard player to raise money for his travels.

[Kris Shreiner]

Guys....he caddied. I never claimed he found golf as a caddie. My remarks were made after referring to contributions by caddies to the game. He was a top young player by then, but apparently didn't have a problem carrying a bag to earn money. Something a lot of the prima donna boy wonders would scoff at. Actually having to bust your tail a little helping OTHERS enjoy their game. That alone got my respect.

Who said ALL caddies found the game there? Many have. Particularly those from modest backgrounds. Clear enough?

Cheers,
Kris

[Pete Buczkowski]

Sending people into the "wrong" fairways on #14 and sometimes on #13 was a hard hurdle to get over mentally ... it's one of the reasons they have that local rule that "homeward players have the right of way".  Sometimes the best play on #4 is over into #15, too, if your golfer can't reach the green in two, but you've got to be careful about doing that because of the same local rule.  There was also one hole where I could never figure out a really good idea on the tee shot for most people ... #12.  I've seen that hole screw up a lot of great players since, including Tom Watson in 1988, until they all started driving it over the green like Tiger.

Interestingly, 12 was the hole where I received the most unconventional advice from my caddy John Boyne. He said to either hit driver at the green or hit my 150 club (8 iron) along the extreme right of the fairway.  Took conservative route which won the hole easily as everyone else found a bunker. 

[Bill_McBride]

Sending people into the "wrong" fairways on #14 and sometimes on #13 was a hard hurdle to get over mentally ... it's one of the reasons they have that local rule that "homeward players have the right of way".  Sometimes the best play on #4 is over into #15, too, if your golfer can't reach the green in two, but you've got to be careful about doing that because of the same local rule.  There was also one hole where I could never figure out a really good idea on the tee shot for most people ... #12.  I've seen that hole screw up a lot of great players since, including Tom Watson in 1988, until they all started driving it over the green like Tiger.

Interestingly, 12 was the hole where I received the most unconventional advice from my caddy John Boyne. He said to either hit driver at the green or hit my 150 club (8 iron) along the extreme right of the fairway.  Took conservative route which won the hole easily as everyone else found a bunker. 

My favorite caddy at TOC, Bruce Sorley, has me do the same thing.  He points me into the very light rough that separates the far right of 12 from the Eden course.  No problems over there, and after a 200 yard shot you are looking right down the axis of the green. 

[Dave McCollum]

I didn’t read this thread beyond the first page or so.  I just skipped to the last page to see what everyone was wrangling about that could go on for nine pages.  Confession: I didn’t read the 842 page Merion thread, or the 83 page Golf and College Football debates.  I imagine 9 pages is enough to lose most of us, so nobody will read this.  Of course it has nothing to do with Streamsong’s caddies or anything remotely intelligent to add about caddie programs or anything else.  However, my favorite caddie experience was at North Berwick.  Nice chap named Alec.  He was a retired banker who had just stepped down as the Captain of his club.  How cool was that?  He loved his golf and course.  And after that round so did I.  Best money I ever spent playing golf.

I guess I should also confess that we had lunch and a pint in the clubhouse with Alec afterward.  Settled up, said our goodbyes, and, now that we knew where we were going, slipped off for another round packing our own sticks.

I also once talked to a golfer who called the TOC the biggest mess he had ever seen.  I paused for a beat and then asked “Too cheap to hire a caddie?”  Bingo.

[Kris Shreiner]

I'm sure plenty read it Dave. Yet another shining example of how caddie golf can contribute to a greatly enhanced experience. Was the chap a career caddie? Hell no, but he wasn't above making a few quid helping out a fellow golfer get around a track he knew well. This also is an episode that wouldn't occur within a caddie program model that was only for younger folks. Food for thought.

Now he's probably the type that would have taken you around as a guest if he met you another way. That said, it was the caddie dynamic that provided the avenue for the shared experince...one that continued BEYOND just the round! Bingo. Something the skinflint or ignorant will never get to savor. It's easy to go cheap... rich experiences seldom follow. There are times for thrift. Choose wisely my friends.

Cheers,
Kris

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kris,

If I were you, I'd quickly stop playing the "thrifty" card.

I'm all for understanding that caddie experiences can add to the overall - I am absolutely sure they can... But saying an unwillingness to pay an extra $100 amounts to thriftiness is part of the reason golf is seen as elitist, expensive and unsustainable in many quarters.

You can play some of the world's great golf courses in GB&I for around $100 start to finish, all costs in, without a member or a member's introduction.

Golf club dues / unaccompanied green fees on good to great courses in the States are outrageously expensive by most people's standards.

[J_ Crisham]

My group  of 12 just finished a long weekend at Streamsong. To a man we all found the golf outstanding. Lodging and food was excellent. The caddies were all across the board- some were good, others were clueless with regard to green reads. As far as needing advice on the proper lines off the tee- there are very few holes at Streamsong where its not apparent where you want to place your tee ball. Some in our group chose to carry their clubs or ride carts and they did just fine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally,

One of the reasons that unaccompanied green fees are outrageous at the great course is that they don't want unaccompanied guests, but some members convinced the club that they should permit unaccompanied, so they acquiesced, but at a premium.  $ 400 per golfer is not unusual, and tee off times and the number of daily foursomes are often restricted.   Unaccompanied guests represent a distinct profit center without burdening the club

[Kris Shreiner]

Jack,

I'm sorry the caddie experience for your group was uneven among the staff providing the service. To be fair to them, the program was ratcheted up late and most were brought in from other places. Unless one is exceptional, it takes a little while to get the lay of the land greens-wise. Yet another reason to begin to craft the program, and train the staff on-site, WELL ahead of any opening, soft or otherwise. Glad the overall stay was enjoyable.


Ally,

I stand by every word. Your mention of a $100.00 figure, when that rate constitutes maybe 10% of the total caddie remuneration scenarios, distorts the matter further. Many bristle at having to spend more than $15.00 for a meal. They have a choice. So do you.

I'm well aware of the valued, great golf in the U.K.. I am a member at one of them. It doesn't mean one can't admire or respect what another model can offer.

Cheers,
Kris

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

When you discovered that the key to navigating the sisters around TOC. was to keep them out of the bunkers, did that have a lasting impact on your design principles ?

[Niall C]

I'm sure plenty read it Dave. Yet another shining example of how caddie golf can contribute to a greatly enhanced experience. Was the chap a career caddie? Hell no, but he wasn't above making a few quid helping out a fellow golfer get around a track he knew well. This also is an episode that wouldn't occur within a caddie program model that was only for younger folks. Food for thought.

Now he's probably the type that would have taken you around as a guest if he met you another way. That said, it was the caddie dynamic that provided the avenue for the shared experince...one that continued BEYOND just the round! Bingo. Something the skinflint or ignorant will never get to savor. It's easy to go cheap... rich experiences seldom follow. There are times for thrift. Choose wisely my friends.

Cheers,
Kris

Kris

Tried my hardest to stay off this thread, after all I have no issue with those that want to take a caddy just the idea of caddies being foisted on those that don't, but your post here needs to be challenged. The suggestion that those who don't take a caddy are skinflints or ignorant is complete pish. Has it ever occurred to you that many people prefer not to take a caddy, not just for the cost but for the enhanced golfing experience ie. no constant babble as your new pal trys to make friends with you not to mention the pleasure of getting to choose your own club and working things out for yourself. Frankly if someone tells you what to hit and where to hit it your not playing golf, all you're doing is swinging a club.

And if you do want company out there, no need to buy a friend by hiring a caddy, try asking the pro to arrange a game for you or introducing yourself to other single golfers on the tee. Works for many.

Niall

[Kris Shreiner]

Niall,

Happy to have you share your take. You are entitled to it. Streamsong DOES offer choice. Which was the origin of the thread. I'm glad they have offered a caddie option. There are many who will never take one there. That is fine. Think the slight digression has run its course.

Cheers,
Kris

[Patrick_Mucci]

If Streamsong is to be a full service resort, why wouldn't you want to have caddies available ?

[David Kelly]

If Streamsong is to be a full service resort, why wouldn't you want to have caddies available ?

To paraphrase Hermann Goering, whenever I hear the term 'full service resort' I reach for my revolver.

[Bill_McBride]

If Streamsong is to be a full service resort, why wouldn't you want to have caddies available ?

To paraphrase Hermann Goering, whenever I hear the term 'full service resort' I reach for my revolver.

I give up, what is the non-paraphrased quote?   

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