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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #175 on: January 16, 2013, 01:36:50 PM »
Niall & Kris,

There's a distinct cultural divide between the UK and US when it comes to caddies and neither one of you can alter that divide, hence I think you should confine the discussion to the US/Florida/Streamsong

Patrick

Whats the top 5 courses in Florida that you've had a caddy................oh, never mind.

Niall

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #176 on: January 16, 2013, 03:57:17 PM »
You can also bet your bottom dollar that none of them learned much about gca by pointing their posh masters in the right direction and deciding for them what club they should hit. Carting clubs is just a job, it does not make you a gca or give you special insight into course design IMHO.

Niall,

No, a caddie does not get his GCA liscensure by looping!  Other than that obvious fact, this statement is very inaccurate.  A good caddie MUST understand the architectural principals of a course in order to successfully guide his "posh master" through a round.  I.e., TOC has a number of blind shots where aiming points are vague to nonexistent.  A caddie must know not only where the hazards to be avoided lie, but also how contours will affect a shot once it lands and how the hazards will come into play once a ball takes those contours if he is to correctly aim his player.  Certainly, there is an element of chance here, especially the firmer & faster conditions are and the more severe the weather.  As a Bandon caddie, I asked my players to hit shots they would never have considered due to their lack of experience on F&F courses and/or in windy locales and based on the fact that, as a caddie, I had observed a wide variety of shots - my clients were resort goers who didn't have more than a few plays on each course...and I had both caddied and played each course many many times.  I had to have an understanding of the architectural features to have any idea of where to aim my player and what type of shot I suggest if he is to be successful and I am to have any credibility after the fact.  Otherwise, the player won't trust his caddie and the whole experience will be underwhelming at best.

I'd be curious to hear from Tom D. as to how much he learned about GCA as a caddie at TOC and, if he used that knowledge while guiding his players through a round.  Through reading the Confidential Guide tens of times, I know the answer.  But I won't speak for him, but hope he chimes in on this point.

Cheers

Cheers
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 04:01:15 PM by Will Lozier »

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #177 on: January 16, 2013, 04:03:05 PM »
Niall,

Thanks for your retraction. I most certainly advocated for caddies at Mach Dunes. I was flown over there to help determine how best to create a quality program. And then they sadly opened without a proper one. There has not been a course built in the last 50 years that was more naturally crafted...and it SCREAMED for a proper caddie program given the wildness and vague definition off the tees and edge-areas of play. It WAS buried by the press and reviewers that played it unaccompanied...it was land of the lost golf...in its worst presentation.

Most reviewers that visited there: having no counsel became frustrated, didn't enjoy it, and had no one there with them during their round that could explain what to expect and why. The project has suffered. MD could have emerged with a FAR better reputation as no project I'm familiar with had more superb environmental positives in how it was created. It should have been hailed as a model for doing quality links with the lightest possible footprint. Instead, in the main it got slammed as a rough, confusing, half-baked presentation. Sad, as it is sooooo much more. A quality caddie dynamic on that property, EVEN in the difficult economic climate that opening faced, would have dramatically altered the negative perceptions that greeted their early days. It's still trying to recover.

You still seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that many of golf's most devoted, passionate champions and contributors found the game...AS A CADDIE! That avenue is what is at stake. Don't fret, the U.K. golf scene isn't going to be corrupted by some mass reverse-migration of caddie golf back to the Isles. The Scottish caddie/professionals helped drive the game in the U.S., and caddie golf offers excellent promise in other emerging golf nations if they really want participation/access from enthusiastic golfers of all in society.

It costs money to stay in the game and last time I checked Junior Golf or some First Tee program didn't offer youth a job.  Industry greed and others ignorance are what threaten it. Caddies flourished in the Depression. It ain't just all dollars and cents. It's a mentality.  Of course many who caddied went on to learn other skills. But where did their entree begin?

The game is often cheap and affordable...worldwide...in many places. But like anything else, there are different levels. And those costs vary. Streamsong has at least made an effort to have the caddie dynamic present as an option for the player. I applaud their effort and hope a local community component, particularly involving teenage youth, finds its way onto the property.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #178 on: January 16, 2013, 04:18:39 PM »
Kris

Why does it seem that no one follows your advice after a consult?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #179 on: January 16, 2013, 05:01:11 PM »
You still seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that many of golf's most devoted, passionate champions and contributors found the game...AS A CADDIE! That avenue is what is at stake.

Could you name one of these from, say, the last thirty years?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:11:08 AM by Chris Kane »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #180 on: January 16, 2013, 11:43:24 PM »
Niall & Kris,

There's a distinct cultural divide between the UK and US when it comes to caddies and neither one of you can alter that divide, hence I think you should confine the discussion to the US/Florida/Streamsong

Patrick

Whats the top 5 courses in Florida that you've had a caddy................oh, never mind.

Seminole
Pine Tree
Boca Rio
Old Marsh
Medalist


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #181 on: January 17, 2013, 08:05:22 AM »
Isn't it true that given the pancake flat nature of the state and the prevalence of concrete paths that one push on your sun mountain pushcart provides enough inertia to get you through 18 holes at most any Florida course outside of Streamsong?... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #182 on: January 17, 2013, 08:52:55 AM »
Isn't it true that given the pancake flat nature of the state and the prevalence of concrete paths that one push on your sun mountain pushcart provides enough inertia to get you through 18 holes at most any Florida course outside of Streamsong?... 8)


Jud,

It would appear that you've never been to south Florida

Seminole, "pancake flat" ?

Jupiter Hills, "Pancake flat" ?

Mountain Lake, "pancake flat" ?

Their are no concrete or paved cart paths at Seminole
Pretty sure the same is true at The Medalist and others

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #183 on: January 17, 2013, 08:59:28 AM »
Pat,

Yet again you missed the joke.  You're that one stonefaced guy in the front row that makes comics sit bolt upright in a cold sweat in the middle of the night...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #184 on: January 17, 2013, 09:07:50 AM »
Isn't it true that given the pancake flat nature of the state and the prevalence of concrete paths that one push on your sun mountain pushcart provides enough inertia to get you through 18 holes at most any Florida course outside of Streamsong?... 8)


Jud,

It would appear that you've never been to south Florida

Seminole, "pancake flat" ?

Jupiter Hills, "Pancake flat" ?

Mountain Lake, "pancake flat" ?

Their are no concrete or paved cart paths at Seminole
Pretty sure the same is true at The Medalist and others


Rumor has they even let the great unwashed traipse a few hills at World Woods, Sugarloaf Mountain, Deltona etc.
in a cart of course :)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #185 on: January 17, 2013, 01:45:05 PM »
John,

Of those caddie facilities that I have had some discussion with, they ALL HAVE AGREED with my take. They just didn't/don't want to commit to doing it properly and have to pay ME and the appropriate costs to do it right.  In fact I've had several that said they needed to "see" the written blueprint of how I'd roll it out, and after I produced it for them, then shaft me saying they were going to "do it in house." Nice.

I'm sure some GCA's have had their plans meet a similar fate with weasel clients. What most facility owners/operators don't understand is the blueprint alone isn't enough. There are FAR more skill sets and layers to the process...and they don't have anyone in-house with the goods to deliver.  The caddie dymanic is the one area they ALL think they can skimp on and still be o.k. The reality is they couldn't be further from the truth and the results show....GLARINGLY.
 
There are far fewer folks who know how to craft AND sustain a proper, quality caddie dynamic than ANY other element of the golf profession.  The many poor caddie experience responses, from this small site sampling alone, confirms that. As do all the negative stereotypes frequently stated here and elsewhere relating to caddie golf. Given that there is adequate work available, the quality of a caddie staff will only be as good as the caliber of the individual(s) mentoring the program. Most facilities overlook this fact, and then wonder why the program is mediocre.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:00:19 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #186 on: January 17, 2013, 02:23:28 PM »
Will

I play a lot of links golf as do my friends. I know fine well how a ball will react when it hits the ground when played a certain way and make allowances accordingly. Whether I manage to hit it how I intended is another matter. I have learned by trial and error and by watching others. I don't need to caddy to do that. I don't begrudge anyone earning a buck but I am disheartened by the idea that a lot of courses might be what I would deem unaffordable because of the added cost of having to take a mandated caddy. The thought of not being able to play any course for that reason is enough to make me want to buy a cat so I can kick it around the house.

And let me say, while I'm on a rant, that significantly increasing the cost of a round of golf through having to take a caddy will stop a lot more people taking up the game than those who do take it up by becoming caddies. I don't need my economics degree to tell me that much.

With regards to Tom D, I'm sure he'll chip in at some point but for the sake of prolonging the argument lets assume that Tom spent 2 months caddying at TOC, and lets assume he worked every day and managed two rounds a day, thats c. 120 rounds. While its a romantic notion that he learned his stuff from those 120 rounds, that greatly underplays all the years of study both formal and informal at home and abroad, the trips round numerous courses taking pictures etc, speaking to greenkeepers/architects etc, that he did before he even was set loose on designing a course. Looks good on your CV mind.

Niall 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #187 on: January 17, 2013, 02:24:18 PM »
Niall & Kris,

There's a distinct cultural divide between the UK and US when it comes to caddies and neither one of you can alter that divide, hence I think you should confine the discussion to the US/Florida/Streamsong

Patrick

Whats the top 5 courses in Florida that you've had a caddy................oh, never mind.

Seminole
Pine Tree
Boca Rio
Old Marsh
Medalist


Said with a straight face, nice one  ;D

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #188 on: January 17, 2013, 02:25:52 PM »
Kris

See my point to Will. Mandatory caddies will be more of hinderance to players taking up the game than helping those that do.

Niall

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #189 on: January 17, 2013, 02:46:43 PM »
Kris

See my point to Will. Mandatory caddies will be more of hinderance to players taking up the game than helping those that do.

Niall


Niall,

So much is dependent upon the specific circumstances and the culture they're trying to create.

Why didn't anybody protest when Bandon didn't allow carts ?
Ditto Bayonne.

Look at the perceived idiosyncrasies at Friars Head, Sand Hills or Bandon.

If you want to build a good caddy program in a relatively remote area, how do you do that without having a $ 100 per bag fee or a mandatory policy ?

Look at it from the goal of having an excellent caddy program, not from your particular perspective on caddy use.

Close your eyes, let the force guide you ;D

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #190 on: January 17, 2013, 08:01:03 PM »
You still seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that many of golf's most devoted, passionate champions and contributors found the game...AS A CADDIE! That avenue is what is at stake.

Could you name one of these from, say, the last thirty years?

Angel Cabrera.  There will be dozens more but you asked for one.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #191 on: January 17, 2013, 08:24:37 PM »
With regards to Tom D, I'm sure he'll chip in at some point but for the sake of prolonging the argument lets assume that Tom spent 2 months caddying at TOC, and lets assume he worked every day and managed two rounds a day, thats c. 120 rounds. While its a romantic notion that he learned his stuff from those 120 rounds, that greatly underplays all the years of study both formal and informal at home and abroad, the trips round numerous courses taking pictures etc, speaking to greenkeepers/architects etc, that he did before he even was set loose on designing a course. Looks good on your CV mind.
 

Niall:  I probably only caddied 35-40 rounds on The Old Course.  I was under orders to only caddie once a day so that others who needed to make a living were not impacted by my being there, which was just fine.  That knowledge of The Old Course has been invaluable to my career, but so have all the other things you mentioned afterward.

Still, the quote at the bottom of Kris' posts IS mine, and I will stand behind it.  I've had a lot of caddies of all descriptions over the years, but the guys who caddied for me at the Dunhill were in a different class.  They were used to picking up a player and sizing him up in 2-3 holes and then planning strategy for him the rest of the way around ... and because we were playing some terrific links courses with a lot of strategy to be found, their advice did in fact change dramatically from one player to the next and one round to the next.  It was particularly noticeable on the approaches and around the greens, where they would hedge you to one side to avoid short-siding you, or get you to play toward a subtle backstop instead of firing at the flag and right on through.  In short, they were sizing up shot values, one hole at a time, and they were very good at it.

On the flip side, I've worked with other architects who just looked at every approach from the center of the fairway like everyone would really be playing from there, and never looked much at the recovery shots around the greens at all.  All architects draw centerlines, but some actually believe they exist, which any of my caddies could tell you just isn't true.  I do think golf would be better off if every architect spent a bit of time caddying on a course that he'd built, to see what really happens ... but of course they would first have to admit they might have something to learn, and some could never take that first step.

Quite a few of my interns have spent a summer caddying on a great course somewhere, and I think it's done them a world of good.  It's also not the worst thing to fall back on when work is off and on.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #192 on: January 17, 2013, 08:35:36 PM »
Tom Doak,

Do you think caddies are better equiped to understand architecture because they see the game from all perspectives and not just one perspective, as most golfers do ?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #193 on: January 17, 2013, 08:40:53 PM »
With regards to Tom D, I'm sure he'll chip in at some point but for the sake of prolonging the argument lets assume that Tom spent 2 months caddying at TOC, and lets assume he worked every day and managed two rounds a day, thats c. 120 rounds. While its a romantic notion that he learned his stuff from those 120 rounds, that greatly underplays all the years of study both formal and informal at home and abroad, the trips round numerous courses taking pictures etc, speaking to greenkeepers/architects etc, that he did before he even was set loose on designing a course. Looks good on your CV mind.
 

 All architects draw centerlines, but some actually believe they exist, which any of my caddies could tell you just isn't true.  I do think golf would be better off if every architect spent a bit of time caddying on a course that he'd built, to see what really happens ... but of course they would first have to admit they might have something to learn, and some could never take that first step.

Quite a few of my interns have spent a summer caddying on a great course somewhere, and I think it's done them a world of good.  It's also not the worst thing to fall back on when work is off and on.

If a few modern architects had to caddie at their courses they'd find out "out of play" doesn't exist ;)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:49:12 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #194 on: January 17, 2013, 08:57:01 PM »

If a few modern architects had to caddie at their courses they'd find out "out of play" doesn't exist ;)

For some it would be enjoyable; for others it would be a form of Hell.  Maybe they should all consider the possibility!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #195 on: January 17, 2013, 08:59:44 PM »
Tom Doak,

Do you think caddies are better equiped to understand architecture because they see the game from all perspectives and not just one perspective, as most golfers do ?

Yes.  Caddies understand that golfers are all over the place, and that those golfers have all sorts of different skills to try and utilize.  They don't think of one "right" way to play the hole -- even if the architect tried to design a "right way".  Caddies have to think of a different one for different players.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #196 on: January 17, 2013, 09:04:49 PM »
Tom Doak,

Do you think caddies are better equiped to understand architecture because they see the game from all perspectives and not just one perspective, as most golfers do ?

Yes.  Caddies understand that golfers are all over the place, and that those golfers have all sorts of different skills to try and utilize.  They don't think of one "right" way to play the hole -- even if the architect tried to design a "right way".  Caddies have to think of a different one for different players.

Even if his score will be higher, isn't it more interesting to allow the golfer to discover a course for himself and develop his own strategies. 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #197 on: January 17, 2013, 09:11:13 PM »
Tom Doak,

Do you think caddies are better equiped to understand architecture because they see the game from all perspectives and not just one perspective, as most golfers do ?

Yes.  Caddies understand that golfers are all over the place, and that those golfers have all sorts of different skills to try and utilize.  They don't think of one "right" way to play the hole -- even if the architect tried to design a "right way".  Caddies have to think of a different one for different players.

Even if his score will be higher, isn't it more interesting to allow the golfer to discover a course for himself and develop his own strategies. 

That will never happen.  Caddies always feel (or understand) that their tip is dependent upon the gofer/client feeling he's been well served by the caddy in terms of course management. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #198 on: January 17, 2013, 09:11:22 PM »
Tom Doak,

Do you think caddies are better equiped to understand architecture because they see the game from all perspectives and not just one perspective, as most golfers do ?

Yes.  Caddies understand that golfers are all over the place, and that those golfers have all sorts of different skills to try and utilize.  They don't think of one "right" way to play the hole -- even if the architect tried to design a "right way".  Caddies have to think of a different one for different players.

Even if his score will be higher, isn't it more interesting to allow the golfer to discover a course for himself and develop his own strategies. 

Mark,

How big of a tip do you think that caddy would get ? ;D
He wouldn't be much assistance in the play of the course, would he ?
Probably just a bag carrier, not a guide and advisor.

I like Rocky's business card,
"Wind and Yardage Consultant"


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #199 on: January 17, 2013, 09:13:06 PM »
Even if his score will be higher, isn't it more interesting to allow the golfer to discover a course for himself and develop his own strategies. 

Mark:  Yes, and that's why I left open the possibility that not all architects were always trying to design a "right way" to play their holes.  However, there are a lot of golfers who believe that's what we are supposed to do -- otherwise how could they complain that a particular hole or shot was unfair?  And there are a lot of golf course architects who believe that is what they are supposed to do, to make it fair.

Patrick:  Careful, I was officially a "bag carrier" at St. Andrews.  I'm probably one of the better ones they've had.

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