[Jeff Bertch]

Caddies are the lifeblood of a lot of these courses. They see the course everyday and have a lot of local knowledge. I would approach mandatory caddies with 2 philosophies in mind:

1) Caddie/player is plain and simple; a relationship (if not for just 4 hours)...if some of you approach a 1st date with the same cynicism, you will never have a good time and neither would your date.

2)Every person you meet in your life knows something you do not. I try to be a kind person that shows interest in others. If you do this, you can learn a lot of neat things about the course you are playing.

Be open-minded and enjoy the experience! It is only a hundred bucks.

You could go to the sistine chapel and be amazed by the art and architecture, but having a tour guide would make that experience that much more memorable.

One of the worst caddies i've ever had was at Cypress Point. He still told me a couple good stories. Also, he gave me confidence by agreeing with me on many of my shots. My 76 would have surely been higher without him.

[Jim Sherma]

To throw my 2-cents in... caddies are a nice luxury item when they are good, an unfortunate rarity based on my experience. The days of a bunch of kids hanging around a caddy yard being indoctrinated into an upper-crust game that they would have little or no entree into are sadly mostly gone. My dad got into the game this way at Suburban in New Jersey and it would be nice if this type of situation was still possible.

If caddies were mandatory at my club I'd be looking at an approximate additional $455 a month (based on averaging 7 prime rounds at $65/round). Spread over 8 months this comes to $3,640 additional expense to what is already an expensive hobby. With a family and not being independently wealthy this would price me out of my club and put me back on public courses.

While a good caddy is nice, I have to wonder if the members really getting anything other then manual labor out of a caddy in the 100th+ time playing their home course?

[John Kavanaugh]

You get nothing from a caddie and you will like it.  The only thing I ask from a caddie when we are on the first tee is to limit the amount of times I have to bend over.  I do think there is great value in not bending over to pick up my bag, a rake, a divot or to fix a ball mark.  While it does peg the douchometer I like when I sink a 20 foot putt and the caddie retrieves the ball from the hole.  I'd pay an additional $40 every round to eliminate the bending over associated with the game, another $40 for not having to carry my bag leaving only the last $20 as charity.

I'm going to say again that Streamsong offering a push cart at $15 is going to improve all our lives whether we ever play the course or not.  We need leaders in the golfing community to continue this trend.  I just hope they don't give in like Bandon did and let the lookylous bring their own push carts.  Those guys can be a buzzkill on the scenery.

[David Kelly]

From the time I was of caddying age, 1968 to 1984...

Caddying age?  Judging by the guys I usually get you are caddying age now.

[Rick Shefchik]

I hate being played the rube but must admit that I always thought the caddie was part of the Scottish tradition.  The oddest thing I have heard, considering that I have spent the majority of my life on a golf course for the last 44 years, is that by caddying and observing other golfers you learn life's great lessons.  I can think of no worse place for a young man to learn character and honor than by observing the American golf his ball.  From the time I was of caddying age, 1968 to 1984, I was exposed to and may have been party of a golfing society entrenched in drinking, drugs, gambling and obscure random fornication.  Those were good times.

Today I am afraid caddies at best may experience greed, anger, pills and the misogynistic ramblings of lonely men.  I'm afraid the kids are better without us.

As usual, John, you seem to be surrounded by scum and villainy. No wonder your view of human nature is so dismal if the Americans you play golf with are primarily greedy, angry, lonely, pill-popping misogynists. I've spent some time at Hazeltine, which has a terrific caddie program (more than 100 caddies working steadily, several of whom earn Evans Scholarships every year) because the members believe it is an important part of the game. The members nurture the young men and women who caddie there, treating them like their sons and daughters. I can't think of a better place for one of my kids to spend a summer day.

Maybe it's a geographical thing, although I'm sure there must be few bad apples at Hazeltine, just as there might even be a few decent human beings where you play.

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentllemen,

Bill McBride IMd me in answer to my question and kindly explained the general situation in the USA with regards to the entry level of golf club and its caddy program providing much the same information as you Jud.
I now have a more level-headed, nay mature, view of the trade in the USA.
Thanks for that Bill and Jud.

Rick,
Your story regarding Hazletine is heartwarming and obviously an excellent example of what can be at the top end.
In the same breath my experiences are far more in tune with John Kavanaugh's dread words. Well-heeled Scottish golfers were prone to volcanic eruptions, old male caddies were prone to stand-over tactics, younger (but older than me) male caddies were prone to bullying and rest assured I'm no shrinking violet so the odd scrap was entered into!
I am delighted that at the top-end USA courses the golfers and caddies have come to such a rapprochement …. and saddened that my experiences were so negative and I constantly throw cold water on the idea that caddying is/was romantic.

Please continue to keep me in the loop even with this dyspeptic approach!!

Cheers Colin

[Mike_Trenham]

A couple of points.

Question does a mandatory food minimum improve the quality of food in the clubhouse?

Point, cadding let's a young caddie know that older sucessful people are imperfect to so when the interview for work and start a career they are not intimidated, as executives are morons that forget their putters if you forecaddie.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

If you ignore and perhaps excuse my cynicism I think you'll find we are saying the same thing, that those forced into taking a caddy against there wishes or desires are effectively subsidising those that do want to have a "good" or experienced caddy, on the basis that making caddies mandatory would seem to make them better.

Maybe you could say that since the mandate almost assures the club of getting a quality caddy program.

As an aside, doesn't caddies having a gauranteed income (or perhaps a subsidised income might be a better way of putting it) not run contra to the survival of the fitest and therefore lead to sloppiness ?

I don't know that they have a guaranteed income, but, they do have a greater chance of getting a loop or two.
Don't forget that the tip can be a significant bonus, so the potential for earning a good tip usually keeps caddies on their toes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill, Pat I'm rolling off my seat with laughter, all the surgeons I know have more letters after their names than in their names. These are called "qualifications" I'm sure you have them in the USA. A student goes to med school appears 5 years later as a member of a professional body, then gets more qualifications in their specialism. When a hospital hires them they see all their qualifications and memberships of professional bodies, if anything goes wrong there is a clear line of recourse.

Mark,

In the U.S. they're mostly independent contractors, but, at hospitals like Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, they're employees.

A caddie I had at a very private top 25 US club, didn't play the game, couldn't read a putt and lost a head cover but didn't mention it.
Which professional body do I complain to? Oh as a guest I certainly didn't want to embarrass my host so said nothing.

I  think it depends upon two things, the strength of the relationship you have with your host and his disposition at the end of the round.

[Kevin_Reilly]

You could go to the sistine chapel and be amazed by the art and architecture, but having a tour guide would make that experience that much more memorable.

The Sistine Chapel could also be a (better) example for the other side of the argument.  Inside the Chapel, no talking or photographs are allowed.  It is you and your eyes.  Your guide can tell you all about it beforehand or afterwards, but inside the Chapel there is no guidance for you.

[Kris Shreiner]

I am continually amazed at the mysterious effect caddie golf seems to have on the mentality of so many that chime in on this site. First, despite some insistence that I do...let me make it VERY clear...I DO NOT advocate that every new pay and play(or any other course) needs a quality caddie program. I do know that almost any MAJOR destination golf course of quality built in the last 20 years that HASN'T had one, and relies heavily on AMERICAN golfers to become profitable, has struggled.

Most U.K. golfers, except for the elite clubs such as Prestwick or Muirfield, have no modern cultural context regarding caddie golf other than the places that offer them for the "visiting" golfer. I wince at the pathetic standard that most courses that have caddies on offer over there feel is acceptable. Don't elevate the product(and by that I don't mean a white jumper!). Continue to overlook this glaring problem and reinforce the same wild variations of service and experience...if it stinks...it's all good. Is that it?

While some feel that a mandatory caddie edict is the best way to ensure a quality program, that is not an absolute. One does not always need to force a caddie on a player. I certainly have NEVER advocated that. One should have a choice. So long as the caliber of course is superior, and those that play it are financially able to afford it and value it, caddie golf, properly mentored, can flourish. That is the key. A QUALITY PROGRAM, IN DEPTH, COMPRISED OF VARIOUS AGE GROUPS.

There are the thrifty folk who will try and skirt supporting the caddie program. The cure for that is on the front end, during the vetting process, as to the individual being a good fit for the club's "culture." That is what it is really down to. There are THOUSANDS of club options that will NEVER have caddies. That is fine. The folks that want to do it all on their own, every time out, can join those places.

Just because you support caddie golf doesn't mean you have to take one every time. Many of my rounds will NEVER involve a caddie and I'm an apostle for taking one. I WILL take one at any course that has them. If a member takes a caddie 2 out of every 5 rounds played, you can have a viable program with even just 75 members taking this approach. Folks have to watch their nickels, especially younger golfers that have families, or those individuals just getting established in their respective careers. I get it. Does that approach not seem reasonable?

Why are so many of the clubs that EVERYONE wants to play...caddie clubs? They are inherently linked. Despite the notion that caddie golf is some dying vestige of another age, that is NOT the case. Caddie golf...AT ITS ZENITH...has ALWAYS been... a SMALL, FRACTIONAL percentage of the total golf rounds played. The caddie haters, skinflints or socially challenged players have nothing to fear. This will not change!

What does need to change is the gross neglect of supporting and re-investing in caddie golf, by those administrative bodies of the game, that have, and continue to line their pockets, thanks in large part to the titanic contributions made by that richest avenue golf's champions and differencemakers. Until that is reversed, the game will continue to lose the richness and texture that have defined it for centuries.

It's irrefutable...as history confirms.

Cheers,
Kris

[Niall C]

Sorry Kris, thats so much nonsense. Haven't got the time right now to go through your post point by point but the link between great courses and caddies is that great courses attract a lot of people and inevitably the price of a game goes up, which means generally speaking the people who play it most are the high rollers who can afford and maybe even want a caddy. The caddies come after, not before. People want to play the course for the course, not because of the quality of the caddy programme whatever that is.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall & Kris,

There's a distinct cultural divide between the UK and US when it comes to caddies and neither one of you can alter that divide, hence I think you should confine the discussion to the US/Florida/Streamsong

[John Kavanaugh]

Kris,

I have no choice but to agree with you that a strong caddie program does improve the financial strength of a club. My home club added over 30 new initiation paying golfing members last year in part because of ours. If you are a member we are a single bag only take one if you want one facility.

I am curious though about what drives your unusual passion. What is or has been your professional relationship with caddie programs? Do you have ties with the Evans program?

[Jeff Bertch]

You could go to the sistine chapel and be amazed by the art and architecture, but having a tour guide would make that experience that much more memorable.

The Sistine Chapel could also be a (better) example for the other side of the argument.  Inside the Chapel, no talking or photographs are allowed.  It is you and your eyes.  Your guide can tell you all about it beforehand or afterwards, but inside the Chapel there is no guidance for you.

Good call Kevin. I obviously have never been to Italy, but my sister is on a trip there so it was in my mind. You could take any other tour of art, architecture, etc. as an example. Golf Course Architecture is history too! What I don't get is how many people on here are so against caddies. If you are not playing with a knowledgable member, caddie is your best option to the history and changes of a course. Be inquisitive and learn something. For most of us, it is very rare that we take caddies all the time. As for Streamsong, the option is a beautiful thing. For your first trip, take a caddie. There are some good Bandon caddies as well as a few from NGLA. Any returning trip, you will have something to go by.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please let's not spread the myth that caddies are accurate about anything legal or moral. There is no worse source for information about the architectural history of a club than a caddie. The absolute best you will ever do is the cousin of Cliff Clavin.

[Will Lozier]

Please let's not spread the myth that caddies are accurate about anything legal or moral. There is no worse source for information about the architectural history of a club than a caddie. The absolute best you will ever do is the cousin of Cliff Clavin.

John,

Stop treating this thread like your personal complaint box.  It is getting old.  How many times have you taken a caddie in your lifetime?  According to your argument, PGA touring professionals would sling their own bag and/or, just tell their loop to carry and shutup.  And don't pretend I am comparing the quality of touring caddies with club or resort caddies on average with that one statement.  Nevertheless, I've caddied on the Nationwide Tour and at Bandon so, in many cases, there is no difference.  Honestly.  Your statements are the worst kind of generalizations one could make about a group of folks - hard-working and generally good at what they do - whom you clearly hate.  You've made your point so, as I said earlier, carry your own bag and get the exercise you clearly need.

Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

I've taken caddies approximately 300 rounds. I've played golf for 44 years.

[Mike Hendren]

I admire and respect those who are outspoken supporters of caddies and caddy programs.  

Maybe it's just me.  I have yet to employ a caddy who I thought was worth the money.  Even if they were quite good - and many were, the only tangible benefit I reaped as a poor player was a more limber back when I woke up the next morning.   In that regard my favorite caddy was a youngster at Lehigh who I correctly paid $40 to carry my bag and pull the pin.  The worst, a gent at Ballyhack who 1) gave me an aiming spot on the "widest fairway in Virginia" only to find my ball in deep rough after I pushed my drive five yards; and 2) just before I pulled my putter back on the 9th green reminded me that the putt was fast and downhill, resulting in me leaving a 15 footer 3 feet short.  Perhaps I'm incorrectly viewing this purely as a consumer who weighs cost and benefit.  If not, I'm hard-pressed to argue with Barney's contention that employing a caddy is charitable work.  I don't mean to impugn the professionalism of caddies - it's just not my thing.  I mow my own 1.2 acres yard and I carry my own golf bag.  And frankly, I like being left alone while I do either.  

Our opinions on caddies vary widely because we all grew up under widely different circumstances.  There's really no debate.

Bogey

[Martin Toal]

I have only ever had a professional (i.e paid) caddie twice, and an unpaid mate as caddie once. The mate was the best because he knew my game and tendencies to hot the wrong club. The professional caddies knew the courses very well, of course.

[John McCarthy]

Since this has become a caddy discussion in general, let me add it is very helpful for a golfer to have a forecaddy out there on drives because when they slice the ball into the woods the ball always ends up in the one spot where a recovery shot is makeable...

[John Kavanaugh]

Since this has become a caddy discussion in general, let me add it is very helpful for a golfer to have a forecaddy out there on drives because when they slice the ball into the woods the ball always ends up in the one spot where a recovery shot is makeable...

I caught a caddie once moving debris in a hazard around my ball. When I told him that just cost me 2 strokes in my money game he begged me not to tell. I hope it cured him. I lost the hole and pressed. Won more money in the long run than if I had participated in his cover up.

People who take a caddie once or twice a year remind me of the one time tittie bar patron. It's all good till it becomes a habit and fall in love.

Again, I love Streamsong for giving us options.

[Bryan Izatt]

At Streamsong Blue, a forecaddie is sort of redundant since the width is so great that it's hard to get off the fairways.  And there are no woods to speak of where a caddie could be of help.  

[Kris Shreiner]

Michael,

If you had a good caddie...yet claim no benefit to your poor game...only a limber back...one of two things ISN"T true. Either you never had a good caddie and worked TOGETHER to play better, or you aren't being fair in your assessment. It CAN"T be both. For no player, regardless of playing ability, would not have SOME benefit to their day, beyond a limber back, if they truly embraced the experience. Your line saying, " I mow my own 1.2 acre yd. and I carry my own bag. And frankly I like being left alone while I do either," is more telling. You really aren't interested in having the caddie dynamic as part of your golf given the choice. No problem.

You are correct that we all find the game in different ways. And we can can all look at it differently. But we can't deny the current, or historical record of caddie golf's contributions. For those that wish to contest that assertion...I'll debate that until the cows come home. It's irrefutable.

Pat,

My response, save two points, was not directed to Niall's comments, but to the issue in general. As you will note, my prior posts were on the Streamsong program. When someone brings my name and attaches assertions to it in a post that doesn't even involve me, I WILL clarify my position.

John,

I found the game as a caddie and no avenue in my life has given me more. It certainly has not been massive financial gain of any great degree. I have the membership of my original club, Radnor Valley CC, which sadly no longer has caddies at all, to thank for believing in supporting caddie golf, and scholarships for deserving youth that had the academics and financial need. The money I earned working there and other clubs, coupled with a partial caddie scholarship awarded by the J. Wood Platt Scholarship Trust for my dedicated efforts, enabled me to attend and graduate from West Virginia University. I know the value and am determined to support caddie golf for many reasons, but that one alone deserves my commitment to share what it can deliver.

Your wide range of views on caddie golf often baffle me. You support it heartily on one hand and then degrade or mock aspects of it on the other. Caddie golf is like EVERY other endeavor on the face of the earth. It has good elements and bad. But the over-arching contributions to the game...and in its highest presentation...society...are greater than ANY other facet of golf.


In closing,  let's all forget the" BUSINESS of golf" component for a moment...that mantra has injected a lot of poison into the game, GREED the principle element, that has robbed it of much of what it should be.

It is a damn tough sport. It isn't a cheap date to present or play, regardless of the model. It WILL NEVER be for everyone. By its nature, it shouldn't be getting exponentially larger, or have ever-greater acreage consumption for the sake of satisfying industry profit centers...when EVERYONE else in a responsible world community is recognizing that we need to become MORE efficient and REDUCE resource consumption.

Even a dumb caddie can figure this out...so what's wrong at the top?!


Niall,

Why the fixation with cost? Just like food...you get what you pay for. You want greatness at McDonald's prices. It doesn't generally work that way. Not every golf experience is a la carte either. Sorry.

Where do you think MANY who laid out, or then built a great many of those epic courses... found the game? From Old Tom on...
As a second to the prior point, a quick look today finds Mr. Doak, Mr. Hanse, and the C&C duo all doing highly-acclaimed, significant GCA projects. Each of these three teams have been touched by caddie golf influences that have shaped some of their thinking on design. Most also have a caddie dynamic as part of the various facility presentions. I know, it's all nonsense. Keep trying sport!

Cheers,
Kris




Your

[Niall C]

Kris

"Why the fixation with cost ?" well where I came into this conversation was when discussion got round to caddies being mandatory and the suggestion that those who would want caddies anyway were being subsidised by those that don't. That, my friend, is where cost comes into it. I will however recant my comment on you advocating caddy programmes for every new pay and play in the UK as that was obviously a gross exaggeration however you are the biggest proponent of caddy programmes on this website and you did, if I recall correctly, strongly advocate a caddy programme for Mach Dunes.

With regards your comment on the links between caddying and golf architecture, back in Old Tom's heyday these guys were all rounders, including making clubs/balls, playing for stakes, giving lessons, and elementary greenkeeping. You can bet your bottom dollar that none of them got a design commission based on carrying clubs. You can also bet your bottom dollar that none of them learned much about gca by pointing their posh masters in the right direction and deciding for them what club they should hit. Carting clubs is just a job, it does not make you a gca or give you special insight into course design IMHO.

I'm sure golf can be cheap and affordable in the US the same as it largely is in the UK. Not everyone learns at a posh country club and neither do you have to be a caddy to pick up a club for the first time. Now that's the truth.

Niall

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