[Will Lozier]

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but that's where training comes in.
And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

Pat,

These are contradictory statements.  It is the job of the forecaddie to get in position, certainly not the "job" of the player to position him!  Thus...the training, right?!

Cheers

[Niall C]

How do you build a good caddy program if you don't mandate caddies ?

If a caddy's sits in the yard all day and doesn't get out how do you xpct to attract a good corps of caddies ?

If a caddy gets $ 25 plus tip how do you expect to attract good caddies.

At clubs in South Florida where caddies get $ 100 per bag, they have great caddy programs.

Do you see a relationship between higher caddy fees and the quality of the caddies ?

So Patrick, let me get this right, in order to have a good set of caddies you need to make it obligatory to have a caddy, is that what you mean by mandate ? So in other words those members who don't want a caddy have to have one in order that those who do get someone who is half way competent, in other words part of the membership is subsidising the other part, wonderful  

Niall

[Jud_T]

Niall,

In the States unfortunately that's the case.  Most Americans are fat and lazy, or they are programmed to act like they are from a young age.  If not forced to take a caddie, most will opt for a cart and there simply won't be enough incentive to keep butts in the proverbial seats in the caddie shack.  It's the cost of doing business at most private clubs and high end resorts.  The flip side is that, while overpaid by UK standards, there are some fantastic caddies available.

[Terry Lavin]

How do you build a good caddy program if you don't mandate caddies ?

If a caddy's sits in the yard all day and doesn't get out how do you xpct to attract a good corps of caddies ?

If a caddy gets $ 25 plus tip how do you expect to attract good caddies.

At clubs in South Florida where caddies get $ 100 per bag, they have great caddy programs.

Do you see a relationship between higher caddy fees and the quality of the caddies ?

So Patrick, let me get this right, in order to have a good set of caddies you need to make it obligatory to have a caddy, is that what you mean by mandate ? So in other words those members who don't want a caddy have to have one in order that those who do get someone who is half way competent, in other words part of the membership is subsidising the other part, wonderful  

Niall

The thinking is that in order to get and maintain a good group of competent caddies, they need to know that they will "get out" in a loop regularly.  In order to ensure this, most clubs with a good caddie program require a golfer to take a caddie if one is available.  Sometimes this means that a "rider" will wind up with a forecaddie, but usually, it means that the walkers get a caddie to carry their clubs.  This, then, becomes a collision of culture and commerce where the caddies get to make money and the players have access to the services that caddies provide.  Trying to change the culture of a club is difficult, as many will attest.  Trying to make your club walking only if it's historically been a cart haven is verrrry tough to do.  At the same time, it gets problematic to deal with the cheapskates who continually try to avoid a caddie fee by steaming up to the first tee in a cart and trying to play without a caddie.

[Mike Hendren]

Is anyone aware of a restaurant where you must order wine with your meal since they have a sommelier on staff?

Bogey

[Jason Walker]

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but that's where training comes in.
And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

Pat,

These are contradictory statements.  It is the job of the forecaddie to get in position, certainly not the "job" of the player to position him!  Thus...the training, right?!

Cheers

Not contradictory at all.  It's the golfer's responsibility to set the expectations with a new caddy.

And Jud, not sure where all these bargain UK caddies are.  I've taken plenty, and can't recall any being cheaper than what I pay here in the US.  In fact, they're certainly more expensive than what I pay at my own club.

A quick story about this--a few years ago, while playing a world "Top-whatever course" in the UK, a friend and I were having a match with some fairly substantial sums of money being thrown about.  I guess our two caddies figured they were in for a good day because of this, because when we paid them 80 pounds  each that wasn't quite enough.  We literally got shook down in the parking lot, with them saying we were cheap and we owed them more, despite us paying them 25% more than what was suggested by the professional!

[John Kavanaugh]

To enjoy a caddie experience you must embrace the act of charity that you are performing.  You are there for the caddie as much as he is there for you.

[Greg Tallman]

Is anyone aware of a restaurant where you must order wine with your meal since they have a sommelier on staff?

Bogey

How many sommeliers would a busy restaurant need? Not a very good comparison.

[Niall C]

Terry

You of course make it sound very reasonable but I'm sure you'll appreciate that from the perspective of a UK golfer, it does seem bizarre. Golf in this country seems to be based largely on basic cost for golf whereas what I can deduce from afar, country club golf in the US seems to be based on optimum service, not all of which is maybe required or wanted and perhaps doesn't directly relate to the golf but has to be paid for nonetheless. Every time Kris mentions the need for a good caddy programme on every new pay and play golf course over here, I wince. I would hate to see that happen. If anything a couple of scruffy chancers who are just as likely to nick your golfbag as carry it, would probably be more in keeping with the traditional Scottish caddy 

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill, Pat I'm rolling off my seat with laughter, all the surgeons I know have more letters after their names than in their names. These are called "qualifications" I'm sure you have them in the USA. A student goes to med school appears 5 years later as a member of a professional body, then gets more qualifications in their specialism. When a hospital hires them they see all their qualifications and memberships of professional bodies, if anything goes wrong there is a clear line of recourse.

A caddie I had at a very private top 25 US club, didn't play the game, couldn't read a putt and lost a head cover but didn't mention it. Which professional body do I complain to? Oh as a guest I certainly didn't want to embarrass my host so said nothing.

[Will Lozier]

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but that's where training comes in.
And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

Pat,

These are contradictory statements.  It is the job of the forecaddie to get in position, certainly not the "job" of the player to position him!  Thus...the training, right?!

Cheers

Not contradictory at all.  It's the golfer's responsibility to set the expectations with a new caddy.

Jason...yes, it is the golfer's responsibility to set the expectations with a new caddy!  A forecaddie is a very different job in terms of the responsibility he/she has to keep an eye on each players' shots.  Especially at a course the player(s) are not familiar with.  The forecaddie should know the trouble spots - point them out to the group - and be on his way as a spotter to his standard positions for each hole.  He is in essence a tour guide - one doesn't join up on a tour of the Louvre and tell the guide where to go especially when he doesn't know where the finer pieces are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How do you build a good caddy program if you don't mandate caddies ?

If a caddy's sits in the yard all day and doesn't get out how do you xpct to attract a good corps of caddies ?

If a caddy gets $ 25 plus tip how do you expect to attract good caddies.

At clubs in South Florida where caddies get $ 100 per bag, they have great caddy programs.

Do you see a relationship between higher caddy fees and the quality of the caddies ?

So Patrick, let me get this right, in order to have a good set of caddies you need to make it obligatory to have a caddy, is that what you mean by mandate ?

Niall,

NO, what I meant is that in order to build a good to great caddy program you have to mandate caddy use.

It's almost impossible to build a solid, in depth cadre of caddies without the mandate.

So in other words those members who don't want a caddy have to have one in order that those who do get someone who is half way competent, in other words part of the membership is subsidising the other part, wonderful  

That's your convoluted interpretation.

By mandating caddy use, you guarantee that caddies will get a loop, or two, rather than sitting in the yard all day earning  nothing.
Without that mandate, what quality caddy would sit all day and not get a loop ?
They won't, they'll go elsewhere, so, to build a solid corps of caddies,  you have to mandate use.
Some clubs suspend that mandate after 3:00 or 4:00 or 5:00 pm.
Other clubs alter the mandate to one caddy if all members of the foursome are riding in carts, but either way, mandated use is the only way to build a really solid, quality caddy program.  Comparable fees are also necessary.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but that's where training comes in.
And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

Pat,

These are contradictory statements.  It is the job of the forecaddie to get in position, certainly not the "job" of the player to position him!  Thus...the training, right?!

Cheers

Not contradictory at all.  It's the golfer's responsibility to set the expectations with a new caddy.

And Jud, not sure where all these bargain UK caddies are.  I've taken plenty, and can't recall any being cheaper than what I pay here in the US.  In fact, they're certainly more expensive than what I pay at my own club.

A quick story about this--a few years ago, while playing a world "Top-whatever course" in the UK, a friend and I were having a match with some fairly substantial sums of money being thrown about.  I guess our two caddies figured they were in for a good day because of this, because when we paid them 80 pounds  each that wasn't quite enough.  We literally got shook down in the parking lot, with them saying we were cheap and we owed them more, despite us paying them 25% more than what was suggested by the professional!

Jason, there aren't any bargain caddies in the UK because, fundamentally, the only people who take them are Americans (and other overseas visitor)). For good or ill, the caddie culture is essentially dead in the UK. Wentworth mandates caddies for visitors on the West course, but it is as far as I know, the only place in Britain that does. They have a few at Sunningdale. And some of the ritzy new money clubs have caddies, but there are what - five or six of those in the UK? None of the guys I play golf with, even if they went to St Andrews, would dream of forking out for a caddie.

[Jordan Wall]

The best caddie programs are undoubtedly where caddies are mandatory and paid the same rate per bag regardless if they double bag or not.  And the caddies that are given the luxury of double bagging to make more money are generally the best caddies at the club, hence the seniority and why they're allowed to carry two bags at once.

Courses that, in my experience, had mandatory caddies were Cypress, Shinnecock, NGLA, and Friars Head.  I also had an excellent caddie at Riviera that double bagged although I'm not sure caddies are mandatory there.

Anyways, maybe it's something to be said that the courses with the best caddie programs are also the best golf courses in the world.  Likewise, the caddies at these courses are about as good as they get.

Why not make caddies mandatory at Streamsong?  If they want to build a walking culture and give the player a full experience this would be a great idea.  This would also encourage better caddies to flock to the courses because they would be guaranteed to make money.

[Will Lozier]

Jason, there aren't any bargain caddies in the UK because, fundamentally, the only people who take them are Americans (and other overseas visitor)). For good or ill, the caddie culture is essentially dead in the UK. Wentworth mandates caddies for visitors on the West course, but it is as far as I know, the only place in Britain that does. They have a few at Sunningdale. And some of the ritzy new money clubs have caddies, but there are what - five or six of those in the UK? None of the guys I play golf with, even if they went to St Andrews, would dream of forking out for a caddie.

Adam,

Is the Wentworth West mandate new?  I was not required to take one with my group who were members in 2007-8.

Cheers

[Adam Lawrence]

Yeah, since they reopened in 2010 after the second set of renovations (and increased the green fee to £360!!!!!)

[Will Lozier]

Yeah, since they reopened in 2010 after the second set of renovations (and increased the green fee to £360!!!!!)

That is INSANE!  Luckily my 200-or-so-quid fee was taken care of by my host!  I would say that the East is a more enjoyable round despite it's lesser pedigree!

Cheers

[Niall C]

Patrick

If you ignore and perhaps excuse my cynicism I think you'll find we are saying the same thing, that those forced into taking a caddy against there wishes or desires are effectively subsidising those that do want to have a "good" or experienced caddy, on the basis that making caddies mandatory would seem to make them better.

As an aside, doesn't caddies having a gauranteed income (or perhaps a subsidised income might be a better way of putting it) not run contra to the survival of the fitest and therefore lead to sloppiness ?

Jordan

I doubt I've played anything other than a very small percentage of the worlds best courses, assuming that you accept some of the better courses round Scotland being on that list, and no course that I've played has a mandatory caddy policy. As Adam posted, there are few clubs in this country that have them so not sure I agree with your hypothesis.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Jordan - I played a course on your list where the caddies were well under par, basically lazy but quick enough to take their dosh and run.

[Sean_A]

To enjoy a caddie experience you must embrace the act of charity that you are performing.  You are there for the caddie as much as he is there for you.

JakaB is essentially correct.  Since it completely eludes me as to why some hack amateur, hoping to break 75, 80 or 100, feels it necessary to engage a caddie to play a game, I can only conclude that caddies are a form of charity.  I don't so much mind this except if kit must be, I would rather give my caddie charity to kids - for two reasons.  It teaches them responsibility while making them feel good they earned a fair buck and I feel as though I don't have to spend significant periods of time chatting to the kid.  I don't want to have to be there for a caddie.  I come to the course to play golf and hang out with mates, not some adult stranger who is taking a donation off me and taking jobs away from kids.  Suffice it to say I would never want to join a club which mandates the use of caddies.  I have preferred charities which I support.

Ciao  

[John Kavanaugh]

To enjoy a caddie experience you must embrace the act of charity that you are performing.  You are there for the caddie as much as he is there for you.

JakaB is essentially correct.  Since it completely eludes me as to why some hack amateur, hoping to break 75, 80 or 100, feels it necessary to engage a caddie to play a game, I can only conclude that caddies are a form of charity.  I don't so much mind this except if kit must be, I would rather give my caddie charity to kids - for two reasons.  It teaches them responsibility while making them feel good they earned a fair buck and I feel as though I don't have to spend significant periods of time chatting to the kid.  I don't want to have to be there for a caddie.  I come to the course to play golf and hang out with mates, not some adult stranger who is taking a donation off me and taking jobs away from kids.  Suffice it to say I would never want to join a club which mandates the use of caddies.  I have preferred charities which I support.

Ciao  

Sean,

I believe you were around when Jordan Wall first came to the site.  He is an example of someone who became an Evans Scholar through the charitable works of golfers who take caddies.  I wonder if he could tell us the difference that has made in his life and if he could have attended college without their support. 

[Colin Macqueen]

Amen to that Sean!

I am almost bursting a blood vessel as I read these description of the inestimable worth of the caddy! Thank the Lord that Australia seems to do without. In Scotland all I ever saw was wee laddies and whisky-soaked old men trying to turn a penny or two ....  not 80 quid as someone related! Good grief the Unemployment Benefit in the UK is about 70 quid so why should anyone get paid 80 quid for walking around a golfing green for 4 hours...geez! My  four year brush with the "profession" did not provide any starry-eyed idea that it was the making of golf as a past-time. I have never taken a caddy, might take one if he/she was a wee tyke looking for pocket money, and really want to be responsible and get the enjoyment and unexpected thrills of golf without being guided throughout by an adult wanting a handout.

Having calmed down after that wee rant can the Americans on the forum tell me if this penchant for caddies is really widespread on the general run of the mill courses. I can hardly believe that is the case.  I saw not one caddy plying their trade on Brookside Pasadena,  Rustic Canyon, or Pasatiempo. Is there really an abundance of them in the USA?

Cheers and peace'n'quiet!

Colin

[Jud_T]

Colin,

No.  Generally only at high end private clubs near major metropolitan areas or at a handful of high end resort courses.  Many clubs, like mine, can arrange for caddies if requested but they are not required.  One has to factor this cost into the cost of belonging to one of these clubs.  You know the saying "If you have to ask, then you can't afford it"...

[Sean_A]

To enjoy a caddie experience you must embrace the act of charity that you are performing.  You are there for the caddie as much as he is there for you.

JakaB is essentially correct.  Since it completely eludes me as to why some hack amateur, hoping to break 75, 80 or 100, feels it necessary to engage a caddie to play a game, I can only conclude that caddies are a form of charity.  I don't so much mind this except if kit must be, I would rather give my caddie charity to kids - for two reasons.  It teaches them responsibility while making them feel good they earned a fair buck and I feel as though I don't have to spend significant periods of time chatting to the kid.  I don't want to have to be there for a caddie.  I come to the course to play golf and hang out with mates, not some adult stranger who is taking a donation off me and taking jobs away from kids.  Suffice it to say I would never want to join a club which mandates the use of caddies.  I have preferred charities which I support.

Ciao  

Sean,

I believe you were around when Jordan Wall first came to the site.  He is an example of someone who became an Evans Scholar through the charitable works of golfers who take caddies.  I wonder if he could tell us the difference that has made in his life and if he could have attended college without their support. 

JakaB

All of us have our limits for charity and we all must choose the recipients as we see fit.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I hate being played the rube but must admit that I always thought the caddie was part of the Scottish tradition.  The oddest thing I have heard, considering that I have spent the majority of my life on a golf course for the last 44 years, is that by caddying and observing other golfers you learn life's great lessons.  I can think of no worse place for a young man to learn character and honor than by observing the American golf his ball.  From the time I was of caddying age, 1968 to 1984, I was exposed to and may have been party of a golfing society entrenched in drinking, drugs, gambling and obscure random fornication.  Those were good times.

Today I am afraid caddies at best may experience greed, anger, pills and the misogynistic ramblings of lonely men.  I'm afraid the kids are better without us.

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