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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2013, 12:49:19 PM »
Jeff, I suspect that your lack of real world experience in this area has you relying on unproven theories.
You're kidding right?
[/quote]

I can think of one unproven (ridiculous) theory in these last few posts!  (Hint: it was written in green ink.)

You've been very polite Jeff!

Cheers
[/quote]

Will,
I go back to my days at Long Cove in the 80's early 90's when Hilton Head was booming.
We'd get 20-30 calls a day for outside play.
A Long Cove member or Head Professional sending a group had to write a letter and PERSONALLY vouch for the behavior of the groups, and from that group of letters, we would choose 1-2 groups daily.
never had a problem, and there were no caddies there then(other than I used to occasionally on off days for the right $ ;) members)

only about 25+ years of experience at 5 courses (with high outside play demand and minimal supply)  dealing with it, and the only of the VERY few problems I can EVER remember had caddies IN the group.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 04:39:55 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2013, 12:53:02 PM »
I was one post early and missed the top of the page, so I'll repost here:

It amazes me that this debate about mandatory carts, mandatory caddies, ad infinitum can be waged in a thread about Streamsong.  I will just remind everyone once again that the resort in question allows you to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.  You can take a cart, or a caddy, or both; or you can pull a trolley, or you can carry your own bag.

Yet you continue to criticize them because they haven't put their thumb on the scale in favor of any option!

I agree that they will probably find it difficult to maintain a top-flight caddie program if it makes all rounds 50% more expensive.  But, from early reports, 50% of the players are walking ... so maybe the demand for caddies really will be there.

I doubt that percentage will hold up in the summer months, but I expect that most of the caddies will choose to be somewhere else besides central Florida in June and July, regardless.  ;)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2013, 01:16:43 PM »
It amazes me that this debate about mandatory carts, mandatory caddies, ad infinitum can be waged in a thread about Streamsong.  I will just remind everyone once again that the resort in question allows you to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.  You can take a cart, or a caddy, or both; or you can pull a trolley, or you can carry your own bag.

Yet you continue to criticize them because they haven't put their thumb on the scale in favor of any option!

I agree that they will probably find it difficult to maintain a top-flight caddie program if it makes all rounds 50% more expensive.  But, from early reports, 50% of the players are walking ... so maybe the demand for caddies really will be there.

I doubt that percentage will hold up in the summer months, but I expect that most of the caddies will choose to be somewhere else besides central Florida in June and July, regardless.  ;)

And the golfers too most likely.   Although the locals are certainly acclimated.  Perhaps the rates will go down and attract them.  Hint hint. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2013, 01:19:08 PM »
I was one post early and missed the top of the page, so I'll repost here:

It amazes me that this debate about mandatory carts, mandatory caddies, ad infinitum can be waged in a thread about Streamsong.  I will just remind everyone once again that the resort in question allows you to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.  You can take a cart, or a caddy, or both; or you can pull a trolley, or you can carry your own bag.

Yet you continue to criticize them because they haven't put their thumb on the scale in favor of any option!

I agree that they will probably find it difficult to maintain a top-flight caddie program if it makes all rounds 50% more expensive.  But, from early reports, 50% of the players are walking ... so maybe the demand for caddies really will be there.

I doubt that percentage will hold up in the summer months, but I expect that most of the caddies will choose to be somewhere else besides central Florida in June and July, regardless.  ;)

whatever you want, and pay for any service you select is a great policy.
Eventually they find what #'s of caddies they need, and occassionally they'll have too many.
Which is no different than a no tee time club where caddies ARE required and they have to guess at the demand for play and staff for the highest possible#(welcome to my world)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2013, 04:36:40 PM »
I can think of one unproven (ridiculous) theory in these last few posts!  (Hint: it was written in green ink.)

You've been very polite Jeff!

Cheers

+1
Jeff-You better bone up on real world experience bud. ;D :o ::) Really?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2013, 05:33:58 PM »
I had a friend tell me the truth. Sorry to pull back the curtain. I know golfers so it made perfect sense. This is why I rarely play golf in the public arena.

Truth? Perhaps HIS truth but do not generalize every property by one guy's take/operation. Those benefits are merely a part of it and if you wanted the truth it would be more along the lines of fulfilling a required image moreso than protecting the golf course. There are rather well compensated professionals on staff to do that.

You are on jaded guy - or just one who knows what he can tolerate  ;)

Probably the same guy that comes in screaming after playing in 4 hour and 15 minutes asking "what the hell are you going to do about your marshal?"... You probably would not appreciate my answer either. Unfortunately I am forced to offered it up more frequently than I woudl like after those types berate any number of well intentioned and mannered staff.  

Greg, the reason I am just now getting back to you is because I have been golfing and haven't played in 4 hrs and 15 minutes since the two piece ball.  Do courses really still use marshals?  You got forecaddies, marshals and GPS on the carts keeping track of us in Mexico?  No wonder your best and brightest yearn for freedom.  I know that I have had my moments but God forbid if I am ever so stupid to berate an ex-federalli volunteering at a golf course where they behead guys like me for giggles.

LOL, no forecaddies and no GPS for the record. Unfortunately a marshal is a necessity for a variety of reasons. Ya know taking pictures for them actually helps speed things up.  :)

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 06:43:29 PM by Greg Tallman »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2013, 05:56:11 PM »

Plus, if you can afford to travel to Streamsong and play golf, you can afford a few more quid for a caddy.

I dunno. 36 holes of a la carte golf goes from $350 to $550.  I'll be walking and carrying next month. 

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2013, 06:24:15 PM »

Plus, if you can afford to travel to Streamsong and play golf, you can afford a few more quid for a caddy.

I dunno. 36 holes of a la carte golf goes from $350 to $550.  I'll be walking and carrying next month. 



Throw in lunch and a couple beers, it's $625.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2013, 08:20:36 PM »
Ben, how was it?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2013, 08:51:57 PM »

I love it, Jeff's "lack of real world experience in this area..."   How long have been the professional at a very high end country club?    ;D

Bill,

Jeff's tenure is irrelevant and his experience in this area pales in comparison to mine.

It's the superintendent who discovers the damage, and reports it to the green committee and/or board, not the Pro.

If the unaccompanied players are guests of the Pro/staff, you can be assured that the damage would not be reported up the line.

The board establishes policy, not the Pro, and in the situations I was intimately familiar with, the Pro was highly supportive of the policy to mandate a caddy for unaccompanied guests.  It benefits the club and it benefits the caddy program.

Try going to Seminole and playing without a caddy, ditto Pine Valley

What Jeff also fails to understand, and what his experience should have taught him, is that not all members share the same sense of responsibility.   If the guest is a big client of the member, is the member going to refuse his client's request to play with three other associates ?Even if the member doesn't like or respect his client, or doesn't think his client will be the perfect guest, will he deny him access ?
Does he care if his client isn't the perfect guest ?

You have a lot to learn and my time is limited ;D


Bob_Garvelink

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2013, 08:54:18 PM »
I have a couple of questions regarding caddies.

1.  How do most caddies get paid?  Besides the tip what percentage of the fee is theirs if any?

2.  What is an average tip for a caddie?  I am sure it depends on how they do but what is the norm....I truly have no idea ;D
"Pure Michigan"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2013, 08:55:02 PM »
I was one post early and missed the top of the page, so I'll repost here:

It amazes me that this debate about mandatory carts, mandatory caddies, ad infinitum can be waged in a thread about Streamsong.  I will just remind everyone once again that the resort in question allows you to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.  You can take a cart, or a caddy, or both; or you can pull a trolley, or you can carry your own bag.

Yet you continue to criticize them because they haven't put their thumb on the scale in favor of any option!

Tom,

I agree, I don't get it either.
When a club has a "whatever suits your preference" policy, how can anyone be critical ?


I agree that they will probably find it difficult to maintain a top-flight caddie program if it makes all rounds 50% more expensive.  But, from early reports, 50% of the players are walking ... so maybe the demand for caddies really will be there.

I doubt that percentage will hold up in the summer months, but I expect that most of the caddies will choose to be somewhere else besides central Florida in June and July, regardless.  ;)

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2013, 09:47:14 PM »
All guests should be treated like divots and bunkers on a golf course. THEY ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MEMBER.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2013, 10:38:51 PM »

I love it, Jeff's "lack of real world experience in this area..."   How long have been the professional at a very high end country club?    ;D

Bill,

Jeff's tenure is irrelevant and his experience in this area pales in comparison to mine.

It's the superintendent who discovers the damage, and reports it to the green committee and/or board, not the Pro.

If the unaccompanied players are guests of the Pro/staff, you can be assured that the damage would not be reported up the line.

The board establishes policy, not the Pro, and in the situations I was intimately familiar with, the Pro was highly supportive of the policy to mandate a caddy for unaccompanied guests.  It benefits the club and it benefits the caddy program.

Try going to Seminole and playing without a caddy, ditto Pine Valley

What Jeff also fails to understand, and what his experience should have taught him, is that not all members share the same sense of responsibility.   If the guest is a big client of the member, is the member going to refuse his client's request to play with three other associates ?Even if the member doesn't like or respect his client, or doesn't think his client will be the perfect guest, will he deny him access ?
Does he care if his client isn't the perfect guest ?

You have a lot to learn and my time is limited ;D


Pat,
No one is suggesting anyone play at any club without a caddie. (unless that club doesn't require or provide them)
Caddies have many roles and responsibilities and can greatly enhance the experience for members and guests.
Assigning one because of potentially bad behavior by a guest shouldn't have to be one of the many hats a caddie wears.

Are you suggesting it would be acceptable for a member or professional to sponsor an unaccompanied guest he doesn't like or respect, that he also knows/suspects will not be a good guest?
Does the word sponsor not mean anything to you?
Many people join clubs to avoid such potentially boorish behavior.
I also always thought having a board that establishes policy would be a bad idea ;), now I know it would. ::) ::)

See you have taught me something once again ;)

and yes, I COMPLETELY understand why your pro would want babysitters for unaccompanied guests when members would knowingly not care that "their client was  not the perfect guest" and not be held accountable for the actions of his guest. (probably wouldn't hurt to have a few first responders on speed dial as well ;))
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 11:02:47 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2013, 11:28:39 PM »
I have a couple of questions regarding caddies.

1.  How do most caddies get paid?  Besides the tip what percentage of the fee is theirs if any?

2.  What is an average tip for a caddie?  I am sure it depends on how they do but what is the norm....I truly have no idea ;D

Bob,

If you are playing with a host ask them. You could embarrass them by both over or under paying. If you are unaccompanied then the minimum is $100 for a single, $60/man for a double and $30/man for a forecaddie.  If you are being comped the rates increase to $120, $100 and $50. There is no such thing as a tip. All caddies are paid equally as it is your responsibility to make their experience pleasant as much as they yours.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #90 on: January 13, 2013, 12:02:37 AM »

I love it, Jeff's "lack of real world experience in this area..."   How long have been the professional at a very high end country club?    ;D

Bill,

Jeff's tenure is irrelevant and his experience in this area pales in comparison to mine.

It's the superintendent who discovers the damage, and reports it to the green committee and/or board, not the Pro.

If the unaccompanied players are guests of the Pro/staff, you can be assured that the damage would not be reported up the line.

The board establishes policy, not the Pro, and in the situations I was intimately familiar with, the Pro was highly supportive of the policy to mandate a caddy for unaccompanied guests.  It benefits the club and it benefits the caddy program.

Try going to Seminole and playing without a caddy, ditto Pine Valley

What Jeff also fails to understand, and what his experience should have taught him, is that not all members share the same sense of responsibility.   If the guest is a big client of the member, is the member going to refuse his client's request to play with three other associates ?Even if the member doesn't like or respect his client, or doesn't think his client will be the perfect guest, will he deny him access ?
Does he care if his client isn't the perfect guest ?

You have a lot to learn and my time is limited ;D


Blah blah blah.   This thread was about caddies at Streamsong, now it's about how you always take a caddy at Seminole (like who doesn't), and how a pro who lives with this stuff every day doesn't get it. Give it a break. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 12:13:42 AM by Bill_McBride »

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #91 on: January 13, 2013, 02:34:06 AM »
I have a couple of questions regarding caddies.

1.  How do most caddies get paid?  Besides the tip what percentage of the fee is theirs if any?

2.  What is an average tip for a caddie?  I am sure it depends on how they do but what is the norm....I truly have no idea ;D

Bob,

At Bandon, caddies are paid cash after the round (in some cases after a job - stay of guest) retaining 100% of pay.  I was considered an independent contractor.  $60+tip is the rate.  In my stint, I averaged literally $99/bag, $20 considered to be the minimum tip.  Best job in the world!  As a teaching professional, I made a much higher hourly wage.  And I love teaching.  But it doesn't compare to caddying...at Bandon.

Cheers

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #92 on: January 13, 2013, 03:29:10 AM »
As was asked earlier - how other courses around the world cope with the "damage" Mr Mucci refers to without caddies??

I've played Royal Melbourne, Portmarnock, Kingston Heath, Muirfield, Royal St George's and Prestwick all in perfect condition and barely a caddie in sight let alone compulsory caddies.

Pat are you telling us that guests get onto top courses in the US, often unaccompanied, with their "guests" because they are clients of members and whether they are respected or not?? Surely that is a massive failure in the selection process for members. If that is part of reason to keep caddies the clubs and members should hang their heads in shame.
Cave Nil Vino

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #93 on: January 13, 2013, 03:18:37 PM »
I have a couple of questions regarding caddies.

1.  How do most caddies get paid?  Besides the tip what percentage of the fee is theirs if any?

2.  What is an average tip for a caddie?  I am sure it depends on how they do but what is the norm....I truly have no idea ;D

Caddies are typically independent contractors (not club employees) and get paid in cash directly from the golfer.  Streamsong suggests rates of $80-100 per bag.  At my club, it is typically $80 per bag, though a few outstanding caddies will get $100.  I think we are towards the higher end, (even around NYC), though we also have an extremely strong caddie program as a consequence.


Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2013, 04:04:53 PM »
Ben, how was it?

I was able to get out to Streamsong on Friday for 36 holes.  The weather was seasonably warm with little wind in the AM and about 15 mph in the PM round.  The wind was coming out the of E/SE.  

The course is exactly an hour drive from downtown Tampa.  The experience upon checking in was very positive. We started on the Red (6584 tees) course.  The first hole is big boy golf right out of the gate.  Virtually a three shotter if you don't carry the ball 250.  A true 1/2 par hole.  Moving to the second, you have an opportunity to get back a dropped shot immediately.  If you can navigate the forced carry, you are left with a straightforward second to the par 5.  That is one of my favorite things about both courses, an opportunity to make birdies. Certainly, there are number of ball busting par 4's, but one can seemingly make up for a bogey or worse in no time. FUN.  I also love holes 7 and 9 on the front.  Holes 10-12 are all strong par 4's.  Probably the toughest 3 hole stretch on the property.  The biarritz par 3 16th is something else.  A massive dune on the right of the green will have many players hitting their second from a large swale to left of the green.  TONS of options are available from there.  The 18th is a closing par 5 that is very gettable to a better player.  

We headed out to the Blue (after a ridiculously long lunch, more on that in a bit) for the PM round (6698 tees).  The first hole has  been much discussed and the teeing ground certainly is interesting.  I loved it.  However, if Doak's sole intent was to keep guys from attempting to the drive the green and slowing up play, it failed.  The green was easily reachable based on the wind condition.  A relatively safe play with a hybrid left a blind second.  Moving into our second round it was evident that there was much more width off the tee than the Red.  Again, the short par 4's were really strong, particularly the 6th.  I really liked the blind tee shot on 11 and the ability to get  the ball close on the second with a running shot.  The 12th presents a number of options off the tee and a world class green.  My least favorite hole on this side was the 13th.  There is just too much trouble to hit driver, which resulted in a 7 iron off the tee.  16-18 offered a stout finish.  On the last, I hit a strong, running drive and was still left with 220 as the wind had picked up.  My playing partners viewed the hole as a par 5.  A bear of a hole if you are not downwind.  

Positives:
The golf is a blast.  Truly unique to the FL market.  
The closely mown transitions are very cool.  A ton of elasticity is available.
The caddie program appears strong.  Doug Wilbur worked with us for both rounds.  He was excellent (thanks for the rec FS).
The clubhouse architecture really works in the setting.
It's pretty tough to lose a golf ball on the Blue.

Nitpicking:
The food/beverage program at this point is struggling.  No sense of urgency (getting guys out for a 2nd round) whatsoever.  I understand that the resort hasn't held it's official opening yet, but  if you are charging rack rate, provide rack rate service.  I hate to say, I don't see it getting much better as the two managers I saw on duty didn't seem to get it.  
There seemed to be a lot of grain on the greens.  I wonder how intensive the verticutting/topdressing program can be on a resort course that garners play 7 days a week?
While the fairway turf is firm, the ground game around the greens presents a challenge.  Was 419 the correct turf call?
The reservation/tee time system is too laborious.  

Extreme nitpicking:
The shuttle to and from the range is going to be a mess.  While I love the natural look of no cart path/cement, it's a dusty, sandy, wood chip mess that would remedied by a permanent path.  
This is going to be an issue for the entire property as we move into the warm months and heavy cart traffic.  
Each hole location was cut very poorly.  There were pools of sand by each cup.  Our caddie made a few comments.  Additionally, the cups had the shrinking effect as the day went on due to grain growth.  Again, not an issue for some, but if I'm paying rack rate, I expect some care to be taken on course set up.  

I'm extremely interested to see the pricing structure come June.  The current rates are cost prohibitive to a large majority of anyone who lives within 45 miles of the property.  Anyone who is looking to make a Bandon comparison needs to spend bit of time in the central FL market.  

In closing, I loved the golf course and the experience.  I value the fact that such a fine piece of property is an hour drive from my front door.  I look forward to many rounds at Streamsong and sharing the day with friends.  I hope that they can make it accessible to anyone who wants to see what it is all about.  


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2013, 04:21:30 PM »
Ben, I thought there was a Florida resident rate?  No?

Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2013, 04:24:00 PM »
Ben, I thought there was a Florida resident rate?  No?
I made our golf arrangements on Tuesday for Friday golf.  Inquired about a FL rate and told that it didn't exist. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2013, 05:58:07 PM »

Will,
I go back to my days at Long Cove in the 80's early 90's when Hilton Head was booming.
We'd get 20-30 calls a day for outside play.
A Long Cove member or Head Professional sending a group had to write a letter and PERSONALLY vouch for the behavior of the groups, and from that group of letters, we would choose 1-2 groups daily.
never had a problem, and there were no caddies there then(other than I used to occasionally on off days for the right $ ;) members)

You're kidding right ?
You didn't need a caddy, but you were only granted permission after written requests and vouchering were submitted to the club for the approval  process ??  And then, amongst the written requests, only a select number were honored ?  ? ?
Surprised that the unaccompanied guests didn't have to leave their first born and a performance bond in the pro-shop.

And you want to equate that process with one where a member or staff just makes the tee times for unaccompanied guests ? ? ?


only about 25+ years of experience at 5 courses

Just think, with another 25 of experience you'll start catching up with me


(with high outside play demand and minimal supply)  dealing with it, and the only of the VERY few problems I can EVER remember had caddies IN the group.

That's probably because, without the caddies the problems never would have been reported.



Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2013, 06:02:23 PM »
Ben, I thought there was a Florida resident rate?  No?
I made our golf arrangements on Tuesday for Friday golf.  Inquired about a FL rate and told that it didn't exist. 

Maybe it will be an off season thing like Bandon in the winter. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddie Experience at Streamsong
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2013, 06:16:30 PM »

Will,
I go back to my days at Long Cove in the 80's early 90's when Hilton Head was booming.
We'd get 20-30 calls a day for outside play.
A Long Cove member or Head Professional sending a group had to write a letter and PERSONALLY vouch for the behavior of the groups, and from that group of letters, we would choose 1-2 groups daily.
never had a problem, and there were no caddies there then(other than I used to occasionally on off days for the right $ ;) members)

You're kidding right ?
You didn't need a caddy, but you were only granted permission after written requests and vouchering were submitted to the club for the approval  process ??  And then, amongst the written requests, only a select number were honored ?  ? ?
Surprised that the unaccompanied guests didn't have to leave their first born and a performance bond in the pro-shop.

And you want to equate that process with one where a member or staff just makes the tee times for unaccompanied guests ? ? ?


only about 25+ years of experience at 5 courses

Just think, with another 25 of experience you'll start catching up with me


(with high outside play demand and minimal supply)  dealing with it, and the only of the VERY few problems I can EVER remember had caddies IN the group.

That's probably because, without the caddies the problems never would have been reported.



Pat,
C'mon, that was so disappointing. ;D ;D

Didn't have caddies at Long Cove, and only a very select few unaccompanied were allowed out.
30,000 + rounds annually and as you would guess, most of the requests were at high season.
and as you alluded to the process was a pain for all involved.
I'm thinking given the perceived need for groups to have an escort at your clubs ;), you might want to consider Long Cove's  policies, or allow your caddies to carry small arms. ;D ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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