[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

The greatest invention in golf, for caddies, is the sunday, ultra-lite, standup bag.

I remember carrying double, big leather trunks with 18 clubs and dozens of balls and it was very difficult.
Anyone who has played Montclair can attest to that.
Add in a hot, humid day and two wild hackers and it can be a nightmare.

If I was going to caddy, I'd seek out a good course that gets alot of guest play, especially unaccompanied guests, where caddies get $ 100 a bag or more.  A double loop of doubles makes for a good pay day.

And, if you're lucky, the golfer will engage you and you'll both have a good day.

[Will Lozier]

I have never caddied but I do estimate the cost of labor as a living.  Don't you work the same amount of time, have the same level of training and experience and require the same amount of equipment if you double or single bag?  The only cost to the caddie that I see is wear and tear on his body. By using a factor of 1.25 I estimate that a caddie who double bags will need to be replaced sooner which will increase my training costs. Please note that any additional work the caddie is doing will be rewarded with considerable additional compensation. Any monies that the caddie receives over the 1.25 factor is pure gravy for him.

What factor would you use?

Interesting that you take such a scientific or mathematical approach!  My degree is in manufacturing engineering and I've done a bit of time study so I understand where you are coming from.  But, some simple physics calculations would show you that you are doing 2x the work just in terms of weight carried.  Add the addition distance covered and a faster pace - I tried to never simply send player A to his ball with a club and a guesstimate yardage/target and go with player B - and double bagging is simply two fees, no more but certainly no less.  Most of my players would actually pay me more per bag than a single would.  

Having said all this, a lot of (veteran) Bandon loopers would whine if they were assigned a single because they would earn less money.  I actually enjoyed having one player because I simply felt I was a slightly better caddie in most cases although that depends on the player(s).  So, I didn't really care what I was making considering it was the best job in the world (if you're not trying to get rich) and enjoyed every single round enormously.  Simply put, at Bandon and many other great courses where the weather and conditioning require and allow for a ground game, nothing is as satisfying as e.g.: on 18 at PD, suggesting to your player, with a 15 mph tailwind, to hit a 9-iron from 175 yards to land it 20 yards short of the putting surface aiming at the very left edge with a back right pin and watching them pull it off to their amazement and pure joy!  And, even a very good player (perhaps especially good players) will never think of playing the shot this way when it is the ONLY way to play it.  So, grab you pull cart but you'll be missing out at some point!

As far as replacing me...I've never been fitter in my life including when I was playing college soccer.  I am 40 and weigh 185 right now.  I was 35 and 160 when I left OR!

Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

Just because a job is twice as difficult does not mean it earns twice the wage. My 1.25 factor is the value of the double bagger to the golfer. If a golfer pays $100 for a single bag he should only be required to pay $62.50 for a double. Anything more and the value of having a caddie is diminished. Even here my gut tells me that $100 for a single is a better value.

[Will Lozier]

Just because a job is twice as difficult does not mean it earns twice the wage. My 1.25 factor is the value of the double bagger to the golfer. If a golfer pays $100 for a single bag he should only be required to pay $62.50 for a double. Anything more and the value of having a caddie is diminished. Even here my gut tells me that $100 for a single is a better value.

I am well aware as a teacher/coach who works 60-70 hours/week, is responsible for almost 100 teenagers over the course of each day, and is paid significantly less than most.  How much harder is a CEO's job than a laborer in his factory?!  You should probably just ask your caddie to wear a pedometer and whip out your TI-83 on the 18th green so you to calculate what you want to pay him making sure to have some spare change on hand!  Or, again, do everyone a favor and just grab that trolley.  Better still, carry your own bag and get fit.

Again, I agree that a single can offer a better experience (although not always unless you are you and you're thinking about "value" for 3 1/2 hours rather than enjoying yourself) and when I go back to BD with my buddies in 2014, I'll likely take a single for 4 rounds and carry my own for the remaining 2-3 rounds...if my feet hold up!

Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

Will,

The caddie profession is dying because they overcharge for their service.  I'm going to pay a caddie $100 no matter if he carries one bag or two. Requiring customers to overpay is not a good long term strategy.

Maybe this is how CEO's became overpaid. Every time they open a new location they double their salary because they have double the responsibility.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

The caddie profession is dying because they overcharge for their service.  I'm going to pay a caddie $100 no matter if he carries one bag or two. Requiring customers to overpay is not a good long term strategy.

Maybe this is how CEO's became overpaid. Every time they open a new location they double their salary because they have double the responsibility.

I would love to see a good number private clubs in the US go back to rounding up a young caddie corps of junior members, diligently teach them the profession - both caddiemaster and members taking on that responsibility, and everybody benefiting because GOLF SHOULD BE EXERCISE!  And pay them 25 bucks.  But, carts make the PGA Professionals (CEO's) too much money sadly and this model is likely dead.

I will say that golf in general is too expensive clearly.  But, compare playing 36 at Bandon with an experienced and personable caddie - which is necessary if the wind is at all up and because you are walking 36 - and forking out $540 compared to one 5 1/2 hour cartball round at Pebble for the same price.  I've rarely heard anyone say - and proudly none of my players - that it wasn't money well spent for a truly unique and thrilling experience.  

Good point about CEO's.

Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

My Mother was a Deadhead, all my friends growing up were Deadheads, so if I desire the personable experience of a Bandon caddie I will skip the golf and build me a God damned time machine.

[Mark Chaplin]

Caddies are a luxury that is from my experience preventing people joining certain clubs. From my standpoint a caddy is an unjustifiable expense and a throwback to Edwardian times when a golfer would never have dreamed of carrying his clubs.

Unnecessary taxes be they carts or caddies will send many more clubs to the wall.

[Simon Holt]

Hi Mark,

I know where you are coming from but I dont see caddies as sending clubs to the wall.  There are few places with a mandatory caddy programme and those that do often have a membership capable of supporting it.  The best example of this I know is Old Collier in Naples, FL, which has by far the best caddy program I have ever seen. The mandatory caddy program doesn't stop people joining there.  The high 6 figure joining fee might have something to do with it for most. (Excellent place by the way, if anyone can gather the change together)

I'm 32, married, first child on the way.  I cant afford caddies regularly but when I can take them, I will.  To quite a large degree I owe a lot to my time caddying.  I know there are a large number of guys on here that can say the same. 

If people dont want to take them then fine.  I see it as my way to give back to an industry that gave me a good grounding in the golf industry, an excellent contact base, improved me as a golfer and increased my knowledge and understanding of GCA.  It also paid for me to go to University, which otherwise would have been a struggle.  On top of all of that I enjoy having one from time to time!

Much like I donate to my University where I can, this is almost like my thank you.

Simon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Am I the only one on this website who has never taken a caddie.... ever....?

Probably because I haven't played some of the US courses that I would like to have...

BUT... I find the idea of a mandatory caddy outrageous. The same as I find the idea of a mandatory cart outrageous. And when I look at the costs that are changing hands, doubly so.

I don't want someone to carry my bag. I don't need someone (beyond a fellow golfing partner giving a general description) to tell me the best way to play a hole. I'd rather find out from my mistakes.

[Simon Holt]

Hi Ally,

Like I said, its personal preference.  And if you've never taken one.....   The mandatory caddy situation tends to only happen at very high-end private clubs/resorts to my knowledge. 

As far as telling you what to do? Well, if you communicate the level of help you expect on the first tee or range then the experience is all the better for it. 

Anyway, before this develops into another caddy thread of people questioning each others preferences, I will bow out.  If someone uses a laser, caddy, metal 'woods' etc....I don't really mind.  I still enjoy my game and let them enjoy theres. As long as it doesn't negatively effect others than its all good by me.  By and large, caddies cannot be a bad thing for golf and certainly good for youngsters getting into the game.

The mandatory cart thing annoys me more and that is far more common.  Like many, I would always walk.

Simon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Simon,

It is of course my preference only (and one based without any experience of the other side at that!)... For me, it just seems like a strange option to actually want to pay for...

But then I've always shied away from service of any kind on and around the golf course. I'm more a change my shoes in the car park and head out on the course kind of a guy.

After the round is different. Dinner with playing partners being an essential part.

[Niall C]

Ally

I think you are like the vast majority of golfers in UK and Ireland in not ever having had a caddy. Apart form the odd time where my brother caddied for me in a club comp, and that was more for moral support, I've only ever used a caddy twice. Once on the Old Course where the caddy was useful in pointing out the right direction for the blind drives however mainly I took a caddy for the novelty value.

The second time was more recently when a fellow GCA'er organised a caddy for me when I played Balmedie International recently. I appreciated the trouble my fellow GCA'er went to in organising the caddy more than I appreciated the caddy which is not to say he wasn't a good caddy or perfectly friendly. There simply wasn't anything about the course I couldn't figure out for myself, which you quite rightly say is part of the enjoyment, and really all he was was a bag carrier. Not only that though, he changed the dynamic of the whole experience. My playing partner had a caddy as well so rather than spending the round chatting to my playing partner, comparing notes on the course etc, I was almost coerced into getting to know my caddy. By the end of the round I felt I was there for his benefit rather he for mine.

If I had a choice, and money was no object, would I use a caddy ? Almost certainly not. I don't object to those that do but would hate to see caddy's being obligatory in this country although frankly I think there's no chance of that.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Good post Niall, mainly because I agree with everything you say. Aside from my love of golf courses, I play golf - especially at my home club - to meet and engage with friends and especially new playing partners. I then shower and go up to dinner with them. That is what enriches my experience and I too can't enjoy that as much when there is a caddie in our group. I guess it is a cultural difference between GB&I and the USA but anytime I've come across the US service model on British golf courses (e.g. bag drops, club cleaning etc...) then I end up feeling mildly embarrassed and just want to escape to the course as quickly as possible.... By the way, like your reference to Balmedie International... Think you should drop the International though and just call it Balmedie Links... I'll join you

[Kevin_D]

As someone who grew up as a caddie for about 10 years, and play at a club that requires caddies or carts (though there is a certain shame in taking a cart if you are under 70 and able-bodied), I am a bit flabbergasted by this discussion.  In metro Philly and NYC pretty much all good clubs require caddies or carts (and the better ones don't even allow carts at all).  Sure, it's an added expense, but really a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of membership, dues etc.  In addition to carrying your bag, the caddie gives you yardage, cleans your ball on the greens, keeps your clubs clean, rakes bunkers, and generally helps you get around faster.  As for pay, it's simply - you pay per bag.  Sure, there are good and bad caddies, all with their own personalities, just with anything in life, but if you let a caddie detract from your round, there is probably something wrong with you more than the caddie.  There is always a range of payment, so you can adjust accordingly if you have a great/bad experience (and allow kids to learn).  There were always members that would nickel and dime caddies...and they inevitably always ended up with the worst ones!

I think using a caddie adds to the enjoyment of the game, and when I play Streamsong in March and I'll definitely be taking one.

[Will Lozier]

My Mother was a Deadhead, all my friends growing up were Deadheads, so if I desire the personable experience of a Bandon caddie I will skip the golf and build me a God damned time machine.

Wow!  You sound like you'd be a real treat to caddie for!  Go twist one up with your old buds and light(en) up!  You definitely wouldn't want a former PGA Apprentice carrying your bag talking up GCA...might ruin your day.  

Cheers

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kevin - I really reckon it's a culture thing more than anything... I'll certainly be giving it a go when in the States this year....

[Josh Tarble]

I might be in the minority (of US golfers, based on Ally's post) but I feel a bit awkward when taking a caddy.  Something about having someone wait on me hand and foot...

I liken it to paying someone to shovel the snow off your driveway and then standing and watching them do it. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think the "caddy" issue is a cultural issue.

Many clubs mandate caddy use for unaccompanied guests and I agree with that policy.

Pace of play is another good reason for mandating caddy use.

A good friend of mine, who could be deemed eccentric, who's a good golfer with a great sense of humor, who's been very successful in business, belongs to a number of prestigious clubs and carries his own bag where permitted.

So, at one of the clubs he belongs to, which permitted him to carry his own bag, a movement from within the club wants to ban carrying your own bag.  And, the movement gains sufficient momentum to find it's way onto the agenda at the club's annual meeting.

So, the issue comes to the floor.
Those wanting to ban "carrying" make their presentations.
They say it doesn't look good, that it's beneath the status of the club, that when guests see members carrying their clubs they think it must be a second rate club and that it doesn't present the club in an exclusive light.
So, my friend waits until all of those wanting to ban carrying have spoken.
Then he raises his hand and requests to speak.

He says that he's noticed members and guests arriving at the club in Chevy's and Fords and older cars, some of which are in need of a wash or a paint job.

He says that these cars are being parked at the front entrance and that it doesn't look good, that it's beneath the status of the club and that when guests see members driving up in these cars they must think it's a second rate club and that it doesn't present the club in an exclusive light and that he wants to ban all members who aren't driving a preferred list of luxury cars from entering the club.

Well, his friends and supporters start laughing their asses off.
His tongue in cheek sincerity laced with his wit are hysterical.
He says he wants to make a motion hat no car more than two (2) years old should be permitted on premises and that only makes on an approved list be allowed on property.

He then says that if the motion to prohibit carrying carries, that he wants to make a motion about banning any clothing that's out of style, old or tattered.

The motion to ban carrying was defeated

[John Kavanaugh]

I apologize for being part of what got this thread off track.  My initial point about value was to celebrate the fact that Streamsong allows the rental of push carts for $15.  This is an important movement for the walking golfer that should be supported.  If the $15 fee, which I think is very fair, is pushed against too hard we will lose the option all together.

Please note that vacation golf is different than real golf.  $100 for a single carrying caddie is fair value when on vacation.

I will also note an interesting fact that is occurring this weekend.  A well known comedian is appearing in Nashville and is only charging $23 per ticket.  This is a professional comedian.  Why would I ever want any part of my caddie fee go towards being entertained by a caddie's attempts at humor when I can see a professional for such a low price?  Why would I want some budinski listening in to my private conversations with my friends?  I don't get this need for personal interaction with a random stranger.

Here is the moral of the story:  As I get older I require the services of a caddie more but care about what that have to say less and less. 

[Jud_T]

Please note that vacation golf is different than real golf.  $100 for a single carrying caddie is fair value when on vacation.

Isn't this going to be the majority of their business? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Please note that vacation golf is different than real golf.  $100 for a single carrying caddie is fair value when on vacation.

Isn't this going to be the majority of their business? 

Yes and that is why I apologized for leading this thread off track.  Of course the decision between taking a push cart for $15 or a double bag caddie for $100 is relevant.

[Kris Spence]

Pat, the practice tee and fairway are old school without target greens just flags a certain distances.  The balls were new Titliest NXT's or something.  We were there just a few days of opening so the balls were new and the divots few.

Just behind the tee is a short game green that is @ 10k + in size and replicates the greens on the course well.  We debated which team handled the design or if  both had input. We guessd CC because it is located  immediately left of 18 Red.  The area around the green has decent space and variety of elevation.  I would love for my next door neigbor to have one like it in his back yard, I would visit often and enjoy watching him walk mow it before using the hell out of it.

The caddie master said the Owner required a forecaddie for those riding carts because of the sand conditions off the fairways and the extreme wildlife on the property.  We saw deer, hogs, gators and a few other critters we weren't sure of.  The exposed sand is very loose if dry, carts are prone to getting stuck and even walking up or down slopes can be difficult.

Kris

[John Kavanaugh]

I have had the director of golf of a major resort tell me that forecaddies are required to protect the course from the golfers.  The argument that you do not require their service will not fly.  It's like paying a cop to follow your car to make sure you don't speed.

[Bill_McBride]

I might be in the minority (of US golfers, based on Ally's post) but I feel a bit awkward when taking a caddy.  Something about having someone wait on me hand and foot...

I liken it to paying someone to shovel the snow off your driveway and then standing and watching them do it. 

Well, in both cases you are paying for a service.  Why not just enjoy it?

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