[Patrick_Mucci]

No one is suggesting anyone play at any club without a caddie. (unless that club doesn't require or provide them)
Caddies have many roles and responsibilities and can greatly enhance the experience for members and guests.
Assigning one because of potentially bad behavior by a guest shouldn't have to be one of the many hats a caddie wears.

Jeff,

I would disagree.
Not all guests behave properly.
And many guests are far removed from the sponsoring member/staff, vis a vis third and fourth party connections
Not long ago, at a club in Florida, an unaccompanied guest was not treating a caddy properly.
When the turn was made, the caddies made the incidents known to the caddy master, who in turn reported it to the club President.
The club President then rode out to meet the guests and inquired if in fact the guest had done what was reported.
The guest idicated that he had and apologized profusely.
The President told him that he had 15 minutes to retrieve his belongings and leave the property.
The guest again apologized profusely, to the caddy, the other members of the group and the club President.
The club President then informed him that he onlly had 12 minutes before the police would arrive and escort him off the property.

You can't seem to accept that not all guests, or members for that matter, behave properly.
That they have the mindset to leave the course in better condition than they found it.
And that's simply not the case.

So, why take a chance ?
Why not have a caddy accompany the group ?
In many cases I've seen unaccompanied guests get lost whereby they play the wrong holes.
Guests often don't treat a course with the same respect that they treat their home course.
Divots, ball marks, etc., etc..
Mandating a caddy benefits everyone.

Are you suggesting it would be acceptable for a member or professional to sponsor an unaccompanied guest he doesn't like or respect, that he also knows/suspects will not be a good guest?

Jeff, I tried to explain to you that often the member/staff don't know all of the golfers in the group.
I cited the charity situation, the business situation and the social situation where there may be a strong connection with one of the golfers, but less so with the others.  Typically, the member/staff isn't familiar with the three other golfers.

Does the word sponsor not mean anything to you?

Sure, but the sponsor doesn't usually know all four golfers, there's usually one strong contact and the other three golfers are strangers or merely acquaintances.

Many people join clubs to avoid such potentially boorish behavior.

That's immaterial to the issue,


I also always thought having a board that establishes policy would be a bad idea , now I know it would.

So you're an advocate of letting the inmates run the asylum ?

See you have taught me something once again

Glad I could help

and yes, I COMPLETELY understand why your pro would want babysitters for unaccompanied guests when members would knowingly not care that "their client was  not the perfect guest" and not be held accountable for the actions of his guest. (probably wouldn't hurt to have a few first responders on speed dial as well )

You still don't get it.
In many cases the sponsoring member/staff don't know three out of the four golfers.
And, some members are better than others, in many ways.
Surely in your 25+ years experience you encountered and were able to distinguish between great, good, mediocre and bad members.
Every club has them.

[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Blah blah blah.   This thread was about caddies at Streamsong, now it's about how you always take a caddy at Seminole (like who doesn't), and how a pro who lives with this stuff every day doesn't get it. Give it a break. 

Bill,

I'm keenly aware of the topic of this thread, evidently you haven't followed the chronological order and jist of the replies,, so go back and read, in order, replies # 43, 56, 63, 64, 66, 69, 70 and 71 and I think you'll find that Jeff and you were the ones diverting the thread from Streamsong.

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
That's much better.
this will be my last post as we're wasting valuable bandwidth on a thread that's supposed to be about Streamsong, so pay attention.

1. We agree on at least one thing. Some members are better than others.

2. Tell me again how having a caddie present in the long winded President involved /guest behaving badly incident you cite helped to prevent the problem?

3 .Sponsoring a group shoud mean just that. You take responsibility for their actions.
If you as a member,are not acquainted with the group, perhaps you should not sponsor them.
If it's a charity group, make it clear to the organizers, donators, and successful bidders what is expected of them.

4. and no, I am not suggesting that the inmates run the asylum, that's why we have no Board

and finally, caddies are mandatory for every group including members  at the clubs I've been at since Long Cove, I just enjoy pulling your chain.

Stay well

[Josh Tarble]

Ben,

Thanks for the review...sounds like the golf was fantastic and they are still working out the kinks in other areas.

[Bill_McBride]

Blah blah blah.   This thread was about caddies at Streamsong, now it's about how you always take a caddy at Seminole (like who doesn't), and how a pro who lives with this stuff every day doesn't get it. Give it a break. 

Bill,

I'm keenly aware of the topic of this thread, evidently you haven't followed the chronological order and jist of the replies,, so go back and read, in order, replies # 43, 56, 63, 64, 66, 69, 70 and 71 and I think you'll find that Jeff and you were the ones diverting the thread from Streamsong.

15 yards for blah blah piling on. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
That's much better.
this will be my last post as we're wasting valuable bandwidth on a thread that's supposed to be about Streamsong, so pay attention.

1. We agree on at least one thing. Some members are better than others.
By multiples

2. Tell me again how having a caddie present in the long winded President involved /guest behaving badly incident you cite helped to prevent the problem?
Seperate issue as the guest directed his bad behavior toward the caddy, not the golf course.

3 .Sponsoring a group shoud mean just that. You take responsibility for their actions.
If you as a member,are not acquainted with the group, perhaps you should not sponsor them.
If it's a charity group, make it clear to the organizers, donators, and successful bidders what is expected of them.

You're kidding right ?  And how exactly would the charity enforce that.

4. and no, I am not suggesting that the inmates run the asylum, that's why we have no Board



You know my views, I favor a dictatorship.

and finally, caddies are mandatory for every group including members  at the clubs I've been at since Long Cove, I just enjoy pulling your chain.

Jeff, join the club 
But know that I more than enjoy the exchanges, I revel in them.

In all seriousness, if unacompanied guests didn't pose such a problem your club wouldn't have gone to such extensive lengths to screen and limit them.

[Bill Brightly]

It amazes me that this debate about mandatory carts, mandatory caddies, ad infinitum can be waged in a thread about Streamsong.  I will just remind everyone once again that the resort in question allows you to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.  You can take a cart, or a caddy, or both; or you can pull a trolley, or you can carry your own bag.

Yet you continue to criticize them because they haven't put their thumb on the scale in favor of any option!

I agree that they will probably find it difficult to maintain a top-flight caddie program if it makes all rounds 50% more expensive.  But, from early reports, 50% of the players are walking ... so maybe the demand for caddies really will be there.

I doubt that percentage will hold up in the summer months, but I expect that most of the caddies will choose to be somewhere else besides central Florida in June and July, regardless.  

Tom,

Outside of the corporate business, my guess is that the core of Streamsong's business will be guys from the Northeast and Midwest who belong to country clubs, like to walk, and are accustomed to paying $70-$90 caddy fees. ($100 is at the top of the scale.) They pay this every Saturday and Sunday at their home courses. Sure, this adds to the cost of the trip. But for guys like me (and the group of 12 I organized for this March) SS will offer one of the very few non-private club options where we can walk in Florida. And when we compare what our friends pay to belong to private clubs in Florida, Streamsong trips with caddies once or twice per winter is still a pretty good deal.

When you compare the type of golf courses we can play at SS versus typical Florida golf, the choice is clear, IMO. You might have more insight to the Bandon clientele, but knowing what I know about Northeast golf clubs, there will be PLENTY of guys attracted to SS and they will not bat an eye at the caddy fees. One advantage SS will have over Bandon is that guys can walk the first round and ride the second. Many guys just find it too hard to walk 36.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat - you make a big thing about caddies protecting the course from the damage caused by disrespectful players and slow play. If it is that important why do clubs rely on unpaid self employed contractors who have no contract with the club? If their role is so important then surely the club should employ and pay staff to do the job.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - you make a big thing about caddies protecting the course from the damage caused by disrespectful players and slow play.

Isn't it a worthwhile "ounce of prevention" ?[/color]

If it is that important why do clubs rely on unpaid self employed contractors who have no contract with the club?
If their role is so important then surely the club should employ and pay staff to do the job.

Mark,

Do you mean like Radiologists, Anesthesiologists and Surgeons at hospitals ? ? ?

Are they so unimportant that the hospital allows them to function as independent contractors ?

The independent contractor relationship between caddy and club extends far beyond the act of caddying for members and/or guests.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat - you make a big thing about caddies protecting the course from the damage caused by disrespectful players and slow play.

Isn't it a worthwhile "ounce of prevention" ?[/b][/size]

If it is that important why do clubs rely on unpaid self employed contractors who have no contract with the club?
If their role is so important then surely the club should employ and pay staff to do the job.

Mark,

Do you mean like Radiologists, Anesthesiologists and Surgeons at hospitals ? ? ?

[/quote]

Shot, score!

[Bryan Izatt]

After being at Streamsong today I must admit to being befuddled by their caddie program.  And, the web site doesn't really clarify.

Playing as a single I decided to ride a cart.  They charged me the $25 fee plus tax.  Wait for my cart to be staged.  It arrives with my clubs.  I putt a little on the putting green next to the staging area.  Then, drive the 100 feet up to the starter.  He asks where my caddie is.  I say I'm riding and didn't want a caddie.  He says you have to take a forecaddie.  I ask how much you're required to tip he caddie.  He says $40.  The web site says forecaddies are $25 per bag plus tip.  Doesn't mention if they're mandatory.  The inside shop charged me for the cart but not the forecaddie.  The starter asked if the inside shop mentioned the forecaddie.  I say no.  Well, you have to take one.  OK, so I'll walk with a pull cart; I really don't want a forecaddie for another $25 plus a tip of $40.  OK, you'll need to wait for a pull cart to be brought up and go back into the shop to get the $10 refund.  The heck with going back in, just bring up a pull cart. While I wait they send out a foursome.  No problem, they were fast with two carts and two forecaddies, and I was taking pictures.

Seems to me that Kemper has some bugs to sort out.

[Ally Mcintosh]

After being at Streamsong today I must admit to being befuddled by their caddie program.  And, the web site doesn't really clarify.

Playing as a single I decided to ride a cart.  They charged me the $25 fee plus tax.  Wait for my cart to be staged.  It arrives with my clubs.  I putt a little on the putting green next to the staging area.  Then, drive the 100 feet up to the starter.  He asks where my caddie is.  I say I'm riding and didn't want a caddie.  He says you have to take a forecaddie.  I ask how much you're required to tip he caddie.  He says $40.  The web site says forecaddies are $25 per bag plus tip.  Doesn't mention if they're mandatory.  The inside shop charged me for the cart but not the forecaddie.  The starter asked if the inside shop mentioned the forecaddie.  I say no.  Well, you have to take one.  OK, so I'll walk with a pull cart; I really don't want a forecaddie for another $25 plus a tip of $40.  OK, you'll need to wait for a pull cart to be brought up and go back into the shop to get the $10 refund.  The heck with going back in, just bring up a pull cart. While I wait they send out a foursome.  No problem, they were fast with two carts and two forecaddies, and I was taking pictures.

Seems to me that Kemper has some bugs to sort out.

Any wonder that I prefer the shoes on in the changing room, bag on the back and in the shower three and a half hours later approach?... I hadn't even heard of a "staging" area until I read another thread two days ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How do you build a good caddy program if you don't mandate caddies ?

If a caddy's sits in the yard all day and doesn't get out how do you xpct to attract a good corps of caddies ?

If a caddy gets $ 25 plus tip how do you expect to attract good caddies.

At clubs in South Florida where caddies get $ 100 per bag, they have great caddy programs.

Do you see a relationship between higher caddy fees and the quality of the caddies ?

[Adam_Messix]

Bryan

I want to make sure I'm reading your post correctly.  You said that forecaddies are required if you take a cart but you can carry or take a pullcart and there is no requirement?

Pat

As with anything else, there always seems to be a bad apple.  Many unescorted guests I've come across are very respectful to the club and their course.

[jeffwarne]

After being at Streamsong today I must admit to being befuddled by their caddie program.  And, the web site doesn't really clarify.

Playing as a single I decided to ride a cart.  They charged me the $25 fee plus tax.  Wait for my cart to be staged.  It arrives with my clubs.  I putt a little on the putting green next to the staging area.  Then, drive the 100 feet up to the starter.  He asks where my caddie is.  I say I'm riding and didn't want a caddie.  He says you have to take a forecaddie.  I ask how much you're required to tip he caddie.  He says $40.  The web site says forecaddies are $25 per bag plus tip.  Doesn't mention if they're mandatory.  The inside shop charged me for the cart but not the forecaddie.  The starter asked if the inside shop mentioned the forecaddie.  I say no.  Well, you have to take one.  OK, so I'll walk with a pull cart; I really don't want a forecaddie for another $25 plus a tip of $40.  OK, you'll need to wait for a pull cart to be brought up and go back into the shop to get the $10 refund.  The heck with going back in, just bring up a pull cart. While I wait they send out a foursome.  No problem, they were fast with two carts and two forecaddies, and I was taking pictures.

Seems to me that Kemper has some bugs to sort out.

Good to be back to Streamsong.
Bryan,
Were the forecaddies riding on the backs of the carts?

[John Kavanaugh]

After being at Streamsong today I must admit to being befuddled by their caddie program.  And, the web site doesn't really clarify.

Playing as a single I decided to ride a cart.  They charged me the $25 fee plus tax.  Wait for my cart to be staged.  It arrives with my clubs.  I putt a little on the putting green next to the staging area.  Then, drive the 100 feet up to the starter.  He asks where my caddie is.  I say I'm riding and didn't want a caddie.  He says you have to take a forecaddie.  I ask how much you're required to tip he caddie.  He says $40.  The web site says forecaddies are $25 per bag plus tip.  Doesn't mention if they're mandatory.  The inside shop charged me for the cart but not the forecaddie.  The starter asked if the inside shop mentioned the forecaddie.  I say no.  Well, you have to take one.  OK, so I'll walk with a pull cart; I really don't want a forecaddie for another $25 plus a tip of $40.  OK, you'll need to wait for a pull cart to be brought up and go back into the shop to get the $10 refund.  The heck with going back in, just bring up a pull cart. While I wait they send out a foursome.  No problem, they were fast with two carts and two forecaddies, and I was taking pictures.

Seems to me that Kemper has some bugs to sort out.

They made a mistake and fixed it. You ended up with the best cheapest option. Sounds like perfect management. I love how Streamsong is shaping up.

[Ben Kodadek]

Bryan,
Were the forecaddies riding on the backs of the carts?


Our guy did last Friday.  He was working his tail off with the jokers I brought out.  

[jeffwarne]

[

Bryan,
Were the forecaddies riding on the backs of the carts?

[/quote]

Our guy did last Friday.  He was working his tail off with the jokers I brought out.  
[/quote]


Nothing quite like the weight of a cart,clubs, cooler,+ 3 riders (x 2 per group)to compact turf

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

You can't be serious in suggesting that the current cart traffic at Streamsong is damaging their turf.
That's a weak to lame argument by any stretch of the imagination.

But, if you have the courage of your convictions, why don't you email the director of golf and offer your criticisms, comments and recommendations.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

You can't be serious in suggesting that the current cart traffic at Streamsong is damaging their turf.
That's a weak to lame argument by any stretch of the imagination.

But, if you have the courage of your convictions, why don't you email the director of golf and offer your criticisms, comments and recommendations.

You're correct,I can't comment on whether it's damaging turf at Streamsong as I've never been there,and have only minimal anecdotal caddies are hanging off the backs of carts.

But you are aware carts are a cause of turf compaction correct?
add the extra weight of an additional rider, particular after rain/moisture, and it most definitely has a huge effect.
Note the dormant bermuda turf on a par 3 that's cartpaths only, vs. the turf of a par 4 where carts are rolling.

Once upon a time forecaddies "forecaddied", sadly in the modern, wipe your ass era, too many players think a caddie is there to give them a playing lesson, which keeps them from being in position ahead of play.

As far as telling the DOG how to do his job, I'm sure you'll get him up to speed in March

[Jud_T]

Don't know about the Streamsong experience, but if I have a forecaddie practically the only thing I want him/her to do is be in position and bird-dog every shot.  Nothing worse than playing a match that gets to a critical juncture and everyone spends 5 minutes looking for a ball that probably would have been easily findable had the caddie been in position and/or paying attention.  Catching a ride occasionally, particularly on paths, is fine as long as it doesn't detract from their primary responsibilities.

[Howard Riefs]

How do you build a good caddy program if you don't mandate caddies ?

Are you familiar with any resorts/public courses actually have mandatory caddies? (Not forecaddies with a cart.)

Caddies are optional at Bandon, Pinehurst, Kiawah, Sea Island, Whistling Straits, etc and their caddie programs are quite good. Caddie is included in the green fees at The Ocean Course but not mandatory.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

You can't be serious in suggesting that the current cart traffic at Streamsong is damaging their turf.
That's a weak to lame argument by any stretch of the imagination.

But, if you have the courage of your convictions, why don't you email the director of golf and offer your criticisms, comments and recommendations.

You're correct,I can't comment on whether it's damaging turf at Streamsong as I've never been there,and have only minimal anecdotal caddies are hanging off the backs of carts.

But you are aware carts are a cause of turf compaction correct?

Not necessarily.   It depends on the volume and corridors of traffic.
And from what I know about Streamsong currently, I don't think cart traffic is an issue, but Kyle Harris could address that issue better than either of us.

add the extra weight of an additional rider, particular after rain/moisture, and it most definitely has a huge effect.

I disagree.   I don't see it as a substantive issue currently.

Note the dormant bermuda turf on a par 3 that's cartpaths only, vs. the turf of a par 4 where carts are rolling.

Once upon a time forecaddies "forecaddied", sadly in the modern, wipe your ass era, too many players think a caddie is there to give them a playing lesson, which keeps them from being in position ahead of play.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but that's where training comes in.
And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

In addition, the insurance carrier for the club usually mandates that caddies and golfers NOT ride on the back of carts.
Some clubs are VERY emphatic in their enforcement of that policy.
I would be surprised if that policy isn't adopted shortly.

As far as telling the DOG how to do his job, I'm sure you'll get him up to speed in March

I will identify and segregate your suggestions from mine 

[Jud_T]

And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

Pat,

I don't think it's the golfer's responsibility to tell the forecaddie TO FORECADDIE...

[jeffwarne]

And, to a great degree, it's the golfer's fault, he should be sending the forecaddy ahead.

Pat,

I don't think it's the golfer's responsibility to tell the forecaddie TO FORECADDIE...

Sadly, Jud, many (cart and noncart) players demand that "Their" caddie be on the tee with them, lining them up, dispensing sage pieces of wisdom, talking the shot through like they're frickin' Bones and Michelson,entertaining them with stories.
While many are only to pleased to play this role , others would prefer to be out forecaddying and eliminating play slowing searches .
We spend a lot of time training our members after they get back from Florida  
Fortunately, this is somewhat limited as we are a walking facility, with carts only for medical disabilities.

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