Tell me about Hell's Half Acre - PVGC #7

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

At the risk of threadjacking...

Did HHA become a "template" for others?  Tillinghast incorporated it into a couple designs that i can think of: Baltimore CC and Philadelphia Cricket (BTW, will this feature be restored in the present work happening at Cricket?).  Did Tilly do this elsewhere?  Do we see this done by any other designers? 

WW

[Jeb Bearer]

I recall reading (on this site I think) that the 10th at Pinehurst No. 2 originally had a HHA-like cross-hazard.

[Joe Bausch]

From a lurker:

Michael:
 
I walked with Love every time he played the course in the Walker Cup in 1985---a practice round, a foursome match partnering with Mike Podolak and a singles match against Peter McEvoy. He never attempted to hit either par 5 in two. I do not recall he ever used a wood on the course (his father walked along-side him that week and it was said he told him to not try to use a wood at PV because it wasn't necessary); on all the longer holes he teed off with a Ping beryllium one iron. There were a number of USGA Exec Comm members following him as they had heard he was incredibly long. I remember so well their somewhat stunned reaction when they saw what he could do. I think the shot they really considered to be a window on the future distance-wise came on #5 when he hit a 4 iron from near the tips over the back right of the green. With that one iron he was consistently 20-40 yards beyond McEvoy's persimmon driver.

[Jason Thurman]

At the risk of threadjacking...

Did HHA become a "template" for others?  Tillinghast incorporated it into a couple designs that i can think of: Baltimore CC and Philadelphia Cricket (BTW, will this feature be restored in the present work happening at Cricket?).  Did Tilly do this elsewhere?  Do we see this done by any other designers? 

WW

I've seen a few similar hazards on more recent courses. Dormie Club has a pretty cool HHA-type feature on the 17th hole. There are also a few HHA-looking bunkers on the Pines course at The Prairie Club, though I think they're all forced carries from the tee and thus don't have the strategic implications that others have.

[Carl Rogers]

Hole 18 at Riverfront has a wetland that stretches across the entire fairway width at about 330 yards off the tee and is about 75 yards deep.  No recovery possible.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thank you to all, intelligent and considered commentary, a high quality range of opinions. Scotty thanks for the pics

I would like to ask that you tell me more...

It seems that it is pretty straight forward for a reasonable golfer to hit a good drive and a good 2nd shot and clearing the HHA - (so similar to HHH - bump for anyone keen to sponsor me on 24 Jan? ), all that is left is to hit a simple shot to carry a further moat sand hazard bunker to a difficult green...

What kind of distance is it from the carry of HHA to the green - is it wedge distance or more?

Apart from the freaky players who can hit 2 x 4 w to the green, ...for everyone else, is it still the prefect par 5? A guaranteed 3 shot hole as Tilly suggested.

If the green had an access point at the front, would this change possibly half the players minds, in actually trying to encourage them to get as close as possible on the tee shot, to allow the best possible chance of hitting onto the green in two? - The "go zone" - How far is that shot from the drive zone to the green, how far from the drive zone to a green side layup?

You have answered my question - is it still relevant today - it seems a resounding yes - thank you.

I am not suggesting a change, but I am interested what changes to the mind of the golfer would occur, what new decisions would need to be made and ultimately, how tempting would it be if there were a ground entrance with some reasonable width to the green to actually change your strategy and have a go at the green? If the distance is great, then it may just tempt more players into more trouble? Could it make the HHA less relevant because it is less of a concern to clear, and more of a challenge to hit close to it to allow chance to make the green, so does then the HHA becomes just something to hit over as your eye is now focused on a completely different kind of target trying to achieve something instead of negatively avoid the penal HHA .

Does everyone agree it is a brilliant design, and if this is the case, no wonder it has been copied, but it seems that those attempts are not in the same stratosphere as #7 PVGC?

[Michael Blake]

From a lurker:

Michael:
 
I walked with Love every time he played the course in the Walker Cup in 1985---a practice round, a foursome match partnering with Mike Podolak and a singles match against Peter McEvoy. He never attempted to hit either par 5 in two. I do not recall he ever used a wood on the course (his father walked along-side him that week and it was said he told him to not try to use a wood at PV because it wasn't necessary); on all the longer holes he teed off with a Ping beryllium one iron. There were a number of USGA Exec Comm members following him as they had heard he was incredibly long. I remember so well their somewhat stunned reaction when they saw what he could do. I think the shot they really considered to be a window on the future distance-wise came on #5 when he hit a 4 iron from near the tips over the back right of the green. With that one iron he was consistently 20-40 yards beyond McEvoy's persimmon driver.

Thanks Joe, Tom P, & Archie.

I followed Steve Smeyers in his Crump Cup final match a few years ago and recall he and his opponent playing HHA very differently, with Steve eventually winning the hole.  It was pretty interesting and I wrote down some notes about it at the time.  Need to look for them.

[rjsimper]

It plays much more uphill than I expected...at least visually...I had always thought of it as a long flat hole, but it seems to play uphill to the edge of HHA slightly, then the green-side lip of it is much higher (and therefore a blind fairway) and then downhill from there to the green.

That said, I also thought the entirety of the hazard was smaller than I expected, too.

So if it's possible to say it was both much smaller and easier to clear, and simultaneously more visually intimidating than I expected, that would be my take on it.

[Kevin Lynch]

At the risk of threadjacking...

Did HHA become a "template" for others?  Tillinghast incorporated it into a couple designs that i can think of: Baltimore CC and Philadelphia Cricket (BTW, will this feature be restored in the present work happening at Cricket?).  Did Tilly do this elsewhere?  Do we see this done by any other designers? 

WW

Yes, Tillinghast wrote about the "Great Hazard" as a template on a number of instances.  Other examples I'm aware of are Bethpage's 4th and Baltusrol's 17th.

Here's a link to the Tilllinghast site (which references PV #7).

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/The_Great_Hazard.html

I can't think of any designers who famously utilized the Great Hazard on purpose, but I'm sure there are many out there.  I know that the Reserve at Thunderhill (Madison, OH) has a number of large ponds in the middle of Par 5s which are difficult to clear without very good drives.  Whether Fred Slagle knew about HHA, I don't know, but it has some similar characteristics.

[Kevin Lynch]

At the risk of threadjacking...

Did HHA become a "template" for others?  Tillinghast incorporated it into a couple designs that i can think of: Baltimore CC and Philadelphia Cricket (BTW, will this feature be restored in the present work happening at Cricket?).  Did Tilly do this elsewhere?  Do we see this done by any other designers? 

WW

I've seen a few similar hazards on more recent courses. Dormie Club has a pretty cool HHA-type feature on the 17th hole. There are also a few HHA-looking bunkers on the Pines course at The Prairie Club, though I think they're all forced carries from the tee and thus don't have the strategic implications that others have.

I don't think Dormie's 17th has the same playing characteristics as HHA, simply because the hazard is much closer to the green.  In Tilly's concept of the Great Hazard, you should not be able to reach the green on a three-shotter unless you are able to clear the Great Hazard with your second shot (which usually demands a formidable tee shot).

At Dormie, the hazard is large, but is not in reach from the tee.  Many people lay up short of the hazard and hit mid-iron into the green (I think I used my Mashie during my hickory round).  Clearing the hazard at Dormie (with two formidable shots) will leave a little pitch in, rather than a full iron.  It's a good hole, but really not similar to Pine Valley's 7th in terms of strategy.

[Kevin Lynch]

Brett,

In response to a few of your measurement questions, I pulled up Google Earth and found the following:

Tee to beginning of HHA:  Looks like it can range from 260-340, depending on the tees

Drive Zone to front of green:  Assuming a "perfect" drive just at end of fairway, it looks like a 265 yard carry to front.  Thus, this would meet Tillinghast's ideal that you cannot get home in 3 unless you cross the hazard (don't think he envisioned 270+ yard 4 woods)

End of Fairway before HHA to beginning of fairway after  HHA: Roughly 110 yards down middle (about 5-10 yards shorter/longer on left/right)

Beginning of Fairway just past HHA to middle of green: Roughly 170 yards.  The landing area for the 2nd shot is around 110-120 yards long, so you can have wide variety of 3rd shots.


For comparison, at Dormie, a layup just short of the hazard leaves roughly 115 yards (very uphill) , while clearing it leaves <60 yards.  The hazard at Dormie isn't as wide, but appears more formidable because you hit straight uphill to clear it.

[Joe Bausch]

More from the 'lurker'.   

Brett:  Thank you for creating a very interesting thread on PV’s #7. I think most all the responses you got are informative and quite accurate.  The incremental distances on the hole provided by Archie Struthers on Reply #5 are accurate. That of course makes sense as Archie’s years-long experience with PV in play is as comprehensive as anyone I’m aware of. We spoke on the phone the other day and it’s interesting to me that we both first came to know PV in 1977 which happened to be the year PV’s famous fifty year president, John Arthur Brown, died, and consequently neither of us met him. Until a few years ago #7 was listed on the card at 573 yds from the tips. Significant yardage was added in the last few years and today it is listed from the tips at 636yds. Therefore, to reach the beginning of HHA from the new tips would be app 325-335 yds. As Archie mentioned in Reply #5, HHA is 105 yds to carry from its beginning to the second fairway. Assuming the tip yardage of 636 is to the middle of the green that I believe is app 40 yards in depth that would mean a second shot from the end of the first fairway to the middle of the green would be app 300 yards. That would also mean a second shot from the end of the first fairway would need to carry app 280 yds to clear the fronting green bunker (which has something of a devilish turbo kick forward at the beginning of the green surface). From the beginning of the second fairway to the middle of the green is slightly less than 200yds. Assuming the front green bunker is app 7-14 yds from front to back (to carry) that would mean the linear distance on the second fairway is app 165 yds. Over the years I recall hitting as much as a 5 iron from the beginning of the second fairway to as little as a lob wedge near the end of the second fairway. I believe your thread title is most appropriate as I feel pretty much the entire strategical pivot point of the whole hole revolves around the dimensions and characteristics of HHA (70 yds wide and 105 yds across). For this reason I would say that over-all strategies on this hole are as inter-connected and “unified” as any hole I am aware of! There are a few more subtle visual characteristics to the hole that I don’t believe have yet been mentioned on this thread. They include the fact that from the first fairway the end of HHA is raised enough to the golfer’s eye line to render the green not visible to a second shot. And from the second fairway the top-line of the front green bunker is raised enough to the golfer’s eye line to make the depth of the green appear remarkably shallow while in fact its depth is probably app 40 yards! I think this aspect renders the pin positions on this hole as deceptive as almost any other on the golf course and of course due to the nature of the routing the golfer has no ability to see the pin position from some previous hole as is possible on #17 from #11 tee. I promised Archie I would provide this thread with a chronicled explanation of Crump’s plans for his intended further development of this hole (into what was referred to as a “double dogleg”) which was partially executed before he died but never completely finalized. It should generate some very interesting further discussion. It was also Crump’s stated intention that both #7 and #15 should not be reached in two shots under any circumstances. The underlying concept of both holes was to be a true three shot par 5 with ideal play, and failing ideal play with those three shots that neither green would be reached in three. It is also interesting to consider that Crump intended to utilize this true three shot par 5 concept on both #7 and #15. It is well recorded by one (or two) of Crump’s closest friends that at the end of his life he had not decided how to also use this concept on #15 while making that hole different enough from #7. #15 did not see formal play in George Crump’s lifetime. Tom Paul 1/3/13

[JMEvensky]

More from the 'lurker'.   

 Tom Paul 1/3/13[/i]

Now you've gone and blown his cover.

[Mark McKeever]

Thanks for the insight Tom.  I'd love to know more about the double dogleg. 

So the higher point on the far right side of HHA was the centerline of the second shot?

Mark

[Greg Tallman]

How would the average woman play this hole?

[Mark McKeever]

Greg,

I would think to try to hit the second shot as close to HHA as possible, then go for the carry.

Mark

[JSlonis]

How would the average woman play this hole?

Based on the average woman golfer that we have at Tavistock, it would go something like this...

They'd likely hit a tee shot, bunt their 2nd to the end of the first landing area or hit it as far as they could into HHA, then they would hope to get a decent lie, advance it further toward the green, likely still in the bunker, eventually chop it out into the 2nd fairway, bunt it up further up the 2nd fairway within 100 yards where they could then try to hit it on and hope for a two putt.

With no disrespect meant at all, I would think the average woman golfer would be thrilled to finish the hole in 8 shots and most would finish higher than that.  Without the ability to carry the ball over HHA consistently, any number is possible.

[Kevin Lynch]

Thanks for the insight Tom.  I'd love to know more about the double dogleg. 

So the higher point on the far right side of HHA was the centerline of the second shot?

Mark

I would like to hear more as well.  It's interesting that Pine Valley's 7th is included within the "Double Dog-Leg" article in The Course Beautiful, even though it doesn't appear to have been implemented.  Here's a page from the Tillinghast society.

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Double_Dog.html

Would the greensite have been moved into the trees to create the second dogleg?  Or was the idea to cut the second fairway left or right and expend the fronting bunker? 

Tom has certainly enticed me with that little hint of future insight.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks Joe for posting your friend - the lurkers - comments, I assumed it was TP, so pleased to see him participating remotely... thanks to both of you!

The additional subtle visuals that TP mentions, again, it seems are much more than just the physical nature, but serve almost subconsciously to mess with your commitment to the shot at hand.

I find it interesting that this new info, further highlights the 3 dimensional (or is it 4?) nature of the actual Half Acre of hazard, imagine it as a clay model or computer rendering, where you can manipulate the angles, raise the furthest hazard edge, drop the front, tilt a little one way... You can't do that with a water hazard?

Q: do we know if these subtleties and finer elements along with the broader dimensions of the HHA have evolved over the years - or have the stewards of PV managed to stay very true to the original design intent - surely nature has moved, raised, lowered edges etc. clearly they have had issues controlling tree growth, or removal of trees in a timely fashion, and the flora thru the hazard - is their intention to maintain a certain ratio of unplayable features within the sand area? Or is it less contrived than that?

[archie_struthers]

 

In my opinion the stewards have done a great job at Pine Valley.  I know some will argue for tree clearing, but that time may come.  This being said ,  having first set foot there almost  40 years ago, it's like going back in time when you walk thru the gates.  The key to all the stewards is that first and foremost they kept golf as the focus of the club.  What did you shoot, how is your putting , any x's on the card.  The feel of the place remains the same , even if the gorse is a little sparser and the greens and fairway heights reflect the technology of the day.

As to architecture , the tweaking has been minimal, it remains very much what it was in 1977, I can't speak personally to anything else.

[Greg Tallman]

How would the average woman play this hole?

Based on the average woman golfer that we have at Tavistock, it would go something like this...

They'd likely hit a tee shot, bunt their 2nd to the end of the first landing area or hit it as far as they could into HHA, then they would hope to get a decent lie, advance it further toward the green, likely still in the bunker, eventually chop it out into the 2nd fairway, bunt it up further up the 2nd fairway within 100 yards where they could then try to hit it on and hope for a two putt.

With no disrespect meant at all, I would think the average woman golfer would be thrilled to finish the hole in 8 shots and most would finish higher than that.  Without the ability to carry the ball over HHA consistently, any number is possible.

So is this poor architecture or simply a sexist design?

[JSlonis]

How would the average woman play this hole?

Based on the average woman golfer that we have at Tavistock, it would go something like this...

They'd likely hit a tee shot, bunt their 2nd to the end of the first landing area or hit it as far as they could into HHA, then they would hope to get a decent lie, advance it further toward the green, likely still in the bunker, eventually chop it out into the 2nd fairway, bunt it up further up the 2nd fairway within 100 yards where they could then try to hit it on and hope for a two putt.

With no disrespect meant at all, I would think the average woman golfer would be thrilled to finish the hole in 8 shots and most would finish higher than that.  Without the ability to carry the ball over HHA consistently, any number is possible.

So is this poor architecture or simply a sexist design?

Interesting take...

Well...IMO it's NOT poor architecture.  You can call it sexist if you want and it might be to some extent but that's not the total reality either.  It's pretty well documented that Mr. Crump built the course to challenge the more skilled golfer and without regard for the duffer.  It would appear to me that he had little if any interest in catering to either women or men that weren't of a certain level of skill.

I also believe it was rumored that Crump had ideas for building another course specifically for women.  Obviously it was never started.

[Mark McKeever]

Yeah, I'm not sure I call it sexist design as there are plenty of male golfers who would struggle to hit it over HHA.  It discruminates agains a player who can't carry the ball 150 yards in the air....but then again we see the same thing on the 5th tee at PV as well.

The course is not very friendly to people who are top top caliber players, simply put.

Mark

[Brett_Morrissy]

Does anyone know if Marion Hollinsworth played at PV? This woman sounded highly skilled, I am recalling the creation of 16 CPC - and Raynor saying it was too long to carry and she teed it up and knocked it over the Pacific.

Seems to me she would have enjoyed the challenge of PVGC.

[Cristian]

End of Fairway before HHA to beginning of fairway after  HHA: Roughly 110 yards down middle (about 5-10 yards shorter/longer on left/right)

I find this interesting: If the carry over HHA on the left side of the fw is 10-20 yards shorter than on the right, how does this influence the decision making on the second shot? Does the green perhaps favour an approach from the longer carry right side?

I know 110 yards seems short, however very few people will have the distance (control) to be able to position their ball in the final 10 yards of fairway in front of HHA, nor will people aim to land the ball just a few yards beyond the hazard on the second shot, one will want to build a safe margin of 10-15 yards. So in reality most people will feel they need to hit 150-ish carries at least, or even longer if they have not flushed their T-shot. Does the shorter left hand carry then become interesting? Is the fw wide enough to make the player contemplate this option? It would be very interesting to hear opinions of people who have some experience in playing the hole, as I assume this aspect of HHA becomes more relevant with greater knowledge of the hole.