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Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Moving Dirt"
« on: December 15, 2012, 12:36:08 PM »
I know it had a time and place in gca, but count me as someone who is entirely sick of hearing the phrase -

"We barely moved any dirt with this project and really just discovered the golf course"

Honestly, why should I as a retail golfer give a crap whether the architect moved dirt or not.  I enjoy playing great golf courses.  If it was naturally found like Sand Hills or the Bandon courses, that is great.  I certainly love those courses.  However, if an architect is required to move a ton of dirt to improve the product, that is fine too.  With the boring, dead flat land in Naples Florida, I am certainly happy that Hurzdan and Fry brought in a ton of dirt in making Calusa Pines, which is a very interesting and fun course with fantastic greens.  

Now I realize that an architect can rarely design something better than what nature has created and some of the greatest golf courses were created more by nature than man.  Also, I certainly don't like courses that have graded out every hump and bump on the property.   But I think some architects are not moving dirt because they somehow think it is "out of vogue".   They think everyone wants "minimalist designs" and therefore they have to play to this ideology in order to get jobs.  

I am grateful for the minimalist movement started by Coore and Crenshaw and Doak.  It has resulted in the 2nd golden age of golf course architecture.   The quality of golf courses within the United States has unquestionably improved as a result.  However, maybe I am nuts, but I think Coore and Doak are more willing to move dirt today than other architects.  Other architects are trying to fit into a movement, while they are trying not to be constrained by it.      
  
Anyway, tell me if I am crazy, but count me down as someone that thinks this phrase as definitely jumped the shark.  

Here is an idea - when an architect finishes a course, he just say  "I built the best course that I could"
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:27:24 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Jim Colton

Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 01:13:07 PM »
Michael,

 I agree with, the whole minimalism for minimalist's sake could be a recipe for disaster. I think Tom has talked about the key being moving dirt where necessary but making it look completely natural. That seems to be the key difference.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 02:48:14 PM »
We have two Hurdzan-Fry courses (neither one done by Hurdzan nor Fry) in the Buffalo area, both opened within the last five years. One was on a beautiful rolling piece of farmland, about 15 miles south of the city. The other sits across from the international airport. It is wedged between a trailer park, another neighborhood and two business parks. The land was railroad land and dumping ground. Can you imagine more disparate sites? I concur, when you are given junk, you need to move earth.

What courses in the Cleveland-Akron area would fall into the "Thank God they moved dirt" category, Michael?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeb Bearer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 02:54:39 PM »
I agree that you need to move dirt on flat sites, but I don't think that that has to contradict minimalism. I think the key to fitting in with nature and creating interest on boring sites is moving as little dirt as possible, only where it counts. That is, centerline hazards and around the green sites like CBM/Raynor often did and C&C did at Chechessee Creek.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 02:57:53 PM »
Michael:

Just for the sake of reference, can you point out where the thought you noted has been used?  

Sven
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:29:32 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 03:12:48 PM »
Micheal,

Who are the architects not moving dirt because they think it is out of vogue?

Are you talking about golf architecture or public relations?
Tim Weiman

Kyle Harris

Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 05:53:37 PM »
What does move dirt mean? Import? Take from one part of a site and use it elsewhere while featuring both?

Does the latter point count double for the total calculation?

What a silly phrase.

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 07:56:09 PM »
Erin Hills

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 08:16:08 PM »
I know it had a time and place in gca, but count me as someone who is entirely sick of hearing the phrase -

"We barely moved any dirt with this project and really just discovered the golf course"

Honestly, why should I as a retail golfer give a crap whether the architect moved dirt or not.   

Here is an idea - when an architect finishes a course, he just say  "I built the best course that I could"

Michael:

You should give a crap because the less earth that's moved, the less the course will cost to build, and in theory that savings should be passed on to you in the cost of a round.  But, I say "in theory", because in our capitalist world the management will generally charge whatever price you would be willing to pay to play the course, based on its quality and not its inputs.  So the only one who REALLY cares about construction costs is the client -- they are one side of the equation on whether he profits or goes under.

Tom Fazio has been saying for years some version of "I built the best course that I could," "as good as it gets," etc.  On one hand, it is a self-evident truth ... you got whatever he could produce.  On the other hand, it's a totally meaningless phrase, if you spend so much money building a golf course that you could have built ANYTHING.  That's one of the main reasons I prefer minimalism ... at least there is some reference by which to judge how well we've done the job.

There's no doubt that a lot of architects are talking like minimalists.  Some are building their courses differently now, and others are still building what they've always built but describing it differently [or even lying about it].  In the end, it's what on the ground that counts.

Jeb Bearer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jumped the Shark
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 08:22:32 PM »
Also, once you throw minimalism out the door on any site you get the inclination to build "18 signature holes", and that is what I think you get on many of Fazio's newer courses (and plenty of other modern architects) - photogenic but boring or unplayable holes "framed" by pointless mounding, bunkers, and lakes that only serve to punish the offline shot.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Moving Dirt"
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2012, 08:26:58 AM »
Tom:

Being that I am not in the business, I don't really know how "not moving dirt" equates to what I see as a finished product.  I do know that I enjoy a natural look to a manufactured look.  I enjoy bold contours in fairways to graded, level fairways.  I enjoy bold green complexes with chipping areas over your standard greens protected by bunkers on all sides.  I am sure that some of these features are found on the ground, but I am also sure that some of them require you to move dirt.   

The difference is that I don't have to try and identify those natural versus man made features on your courses that I have played (Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald).  Why?  Because they all fit with the land.  I don't care if you created the green complex and humps around 18 green at Old Mac, it is great fun and makes a great finish to the course.  In fact, I think this has been proven by many of your posts over the last several years where you ask people to try and identify the natural versus man made features in your courses.   I think it is fairly safe to say that most of us fail miserably at the exercise.

My problem with the phrase is that it is starting to become used by some people as an "advertisement" for the golf course.  As though just because the architect did not move any dirt, it must be a great golf course.  I have heard the phrase several times over the last few months re: newer golf courses by non-traditional minimalist architects and just feel like it is an attempt to capitalize off the success of places like Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes.  Next, I will start hearing people say that a new course is "golf as it is meant to be". 

While I would care if "not moving dirt" equated to lower initiation fees and lower daily play rates, I don't think there is any correlation.  Golf is like any other business.  If there is high demand for a product, the price for that product will rise.  Just look at the initiation fees at places like Sebonack and Ballyneal.  However, I am sure your skills in not moving a lot of dirt, yet producing a world class golf course is one of your strongest selling points to the developer.  But that is a side of golf that I am not involved in and honestly not interested in.

           

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 09:25:57 AM »
"at least there is some reference by which to judge how well we've done the job."

I need clarification on this phrase, if you please, Mr. Doak, that is, if you don't mind and have the time.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 10:37:23 AM »


 Next, I will start hearing people say that a new course is "golf as it is meant to be". 


         


That may be the most commonly used line in those nauseating promo videos used for multiple courses built in the last 10 years, so that wouldn't be anything new.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 11:25:12 AM »

I am grateful for the minimalist movement started by Coore and Crenshaw and Doak.  It has resulted in the 2nd golden age of golf course architecture.   The quality of golf courses within the United States has unquestionably improved as a result.  However, maybe I am nuts, but I think Coore and Doak are more willing to move dirt today than other architects.  Other architects are trying to fit into a movement, while they are trying not to be constrained by it.      
 

Michael,
I don't mean for this to sound like I am jumping you for the above statement but there are some of us that have always built "minimalist" maybe even before the guys you mention.  But I don't like the word minimalist.  But why would you say other architects besides Doak, Coore and Crenshaw are trying to fit into a movement.  I don't do "movements".  I try to design to fit the specific piece of land in the most efficient way I can.  I might not use a shaggy bunker or some other concept this site relates with minimalism but trust me when I move dirt the object is for you to never know it and I would wager that most on this site could go to a site where dirt has been moved properly and think it was "minimalism" because they could not see where the dirt was moved.  IMHO it's not that dirt was moved that frustrates the minimalist movement on this site but it's the way it was moved. And in most cases dirt is moved because it's a bad routing.  BUT of course we had twenty years of pre determined routings placed in housing developments by landplanners, therefore none of us can really blame many of "dirt moves" entirely on the architect.
But please don't think that all of us are in a "movement".
Cheers
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 12:18:36 PM »
"at least there is some reference by which to judge how well we've done the job."

I need clarification on this phrase, if you please, Mr. Doak, that is, if you don't mind and have the time.

For most of the history of golf course architecture, it was pretty easy to judge whether someone had made the most of the property they were working on, or not.

Sometime in the last 30 years, the mass grading exercises applied to new courses changed that dynamic.  So much money has been spent on creating courses where "anything is possible," that on such projects it makes little sense to compare the finished product with the piece of property they started with.  But, then, how DO you judge the work?  Against the best courses ever built?  Against an ideal?  Or against other mass grading projects?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 02:46:00 PM »
Michael,

Sebonack and Ballyneal's initiation fees are likely around a half million dollars apart.  Not the best comparison.

I can't add anything to what guys in the business like Mike and Tom wrote.  So take it from someone NOT in the business that has no skin in this game.  It matters.  From an agronomy aspect, minimal disturbance to soil systems is a big deal.  We don't hear a lot about it because the norm for so many years was to rape the soil structure and spend the money needed to make it good again.  But native soil, used prudently and improved only where needed takes a lot off the bottom line of a project. 


Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 02:57:33 PM »
Ben:

Both Sebonack and Ballyneal got the initiation fees that the market would allow at the beginning.  Now they are charging what the current market will allow.  They are a fine comparison - just different markets.  The point being that the developer will usually get what they can regardless of the cost of building a course.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 03:03:12 PM »
Mike:

Not trying to exclude other architects when mentioning C & C and Doak.  They are just the most notorious for the minimalist movement so I used them as an example.  Also, I am not trying to criticize all other architects.  Just have heard this phrase lately as though if they have not moved any dirt, they have built a great golf course.  That simply is not the case.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 03:05:08 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Jeb Bearer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 03:22:42 PM »
Michael,
That's true. Lack of design interest can be confused an heralded as minimalist design. However, if you look at the minimalist movement, I think it's not "not moving dirt" that characterizes it, but rather taking nature's lead and being economical about moving dirt only to make a strategic impact.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 06:44:30 PM »
Michael,

I understand what you're writing.  But I disagree.  I missed the part during my major in Business that told us that overhead and cost to produce your product weren't important.  It matters in almost all businesses. 

There are exceptions to the rule when it comes to "moving dirt" as you say.  Prudent movement is the key component to making it work in my opinion.  Trying to minimize impact isn't such a bad credo. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 05:07:28 AM »
Michael

The bottom line is always important to me, but for many of the courses I look at playing the cost of build has little connection to the cost of a green fee. While I don't particularly care about the minimalist movement or the concept of creating imperceptible shaping, I think moving dirt has consequences in terms of soil structure and surface drainage.  This, however, is a two way street especially where drainage is concerned.  How often do we see wet area on courses where shapers have changed the profile of the land?  Perhaps this is one reason which has led to very expensive drainage works on many courses - not enough care about surface drainage.  With the bulldozer mentality comes the idea of making the land better fit for golf, unfortunately this isn't always the case as aesthetics sometimes take precedence over function. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 06:01:02 AM »
Sean,

I agree with your sentiments. The only problem I have with many GCA enthusiasts is this idea that the course must look natural which is absurd. How can a bunker look natural outside of a sandy area for example. To me, a course should fit into the landscape (not look out of place) which has nothing to do with looking natural.

If you look at most of Dr. Mac's, Colt's, Braid's courses they don't look natural but they do fit.

I am also of your opinion about moving earth destroys the soil profile and so the drainage.

Jon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 08:06:26 AM »
Michael

The bottom line is always important to me, but for many of the courses I look at playing the cost of build has little connection to the cost of a green fee. While I don't particularly care about the minimalist movement or the concept of creating imperceptible shaping, I think moving dirt has consequences in terms of soil structure and surface drainage.  This, however, is a two way street especially where drainage is concerned.  How often do we see wet area on courses where shapers have changed the profile of the land?  Perhaps this is one reason which has led to very expensive drainage works on many courses - not enough care about surface drainage.  With the bulldozer mentality comes the idea of making the land better fit for golf, unfortunately this isn't always the case as aesthetics sometimes take precedence over function. 

Ciao



Sean,

Not sure I ever heard of anyone in the biz "not caring about drainage."  Nor do I think its a clear relationship between "wet area and where shapers have changed the profile of the land."

But, I do agree that shaping occurs to make the land fit the ideas of the gca, even if it disrupts normal drain patterns and they become seconddary concerns.  This has always been the case to a limite degree, where every bunker or grass bunker requires a drain in anything but sandy soil. 

In modern times, this concept has increased, for a few reasons - big picture, includes need to control views from housing, other site needs, etc.  Even in "pure design" a modern classic example of what I call "discretionary" earthmoving are the "collector fairways" where each is built as a small valley to enhance play (or speed it, at least) for the averge player by "helping the miss to stay on the fw".

But the increase in grading and drainage also comes just from long term study of drainage, too. Also, the relatively cheap cost of pipe has made a combo of less earthmoving and more pipe economically feasible. 

For example, I realize that its better to cut off any large drainage areas before they enter or cross a fairway, for the health of the turf.  Its much like (hopefully a bit more subtle....) an engineer diverting drainage under roads.  I also know that any swale over about 250 foot long will be perpetually wet (again, in most soils) and will slightly modify the ground to trap the water.  Lastly, some turfs, like Zoysia, require at least 4.5% slope for drainage or they suffer.  I have graded the fw that might be perfectly acceptable for bermuda or blue grass from 2 to 4.5% knowing the turf type.

As you can tell, while I may agree stylistically about reducing earthmoving, in some cases, the best product is achieved by just going ahead and moving it.   In many cases on older courses, there was little to no fw grading, but over time, superintendents added usually inefficient tile drains for years.  Why not, if budget allows, take care of as many of those anticipated problems up front, at a one time cost, rather than saddle the golf course budget with $50K per year of adding tile and drainage?  Its usually cheaper and better for the proforma.

BTW, even if the gca "saves" 100K in earthmoving by picking a minmalist style (and as TD has often said, sometimes he moves lots of earth achieve that style) at $2 per CY, that $200K equates to 2-3% of the total budget.  Perhaps the construction cost goes up a bit, but when you factor in long term operations cost and maintenance quality, any earthmoving and drainage you do is usually a net plus to the pro forma, even at greater up front cost. 


 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 05:33:40 PM »
Jeff

"not caring about drainage" is not a phrase I used.  My phrase was "not enough care about surface drainage".  This probably implies a trade-off that I am inot favour of.  While I think drainage is a key element to any project and I applaud drainage systems where necessary, I do question the effect of massive shaping works on courses and the carry on effect these works have for surface drainage.  Its certainly one aspect of modern design I don't care for, but I also accept that often times the given land isn't optimal for drainage.  That said, if drainage is an issue, it should be a higher priority for archies.  I am not convinced this always the case.  The worst drainage problems I have encountered have been on modern courses, sometimes projects that were very expensive.  I give no quarter to these projects as I think their priorities were askew.  The last one I saw like this was the Castle Course in St Andrews - shocking drainage problems considering the money spent and high profile project.  Its just not good enough and I have to believe that too much effort was spent on aesthetics when drainage should have been top of the list.  Its not as if archies don't know about drainage!

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "Moving Dirt"
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 06:09:59 PM »

I have heard the phrase several times over the last few months re: newer golf courses by non-traditional minimalist architects and just feel like it is an attempt to capitalize off the success of places like Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes. 

The 4th green at Sand Hills is a bit of a sore point with the developer since alot of dirt was moved to create that feature>


While I would care if "not moving dirt" equated to lower initiation fees and lower daily play rates,
I don't think there is any correlation. 

Michael,

In conversations with Roger Hansen and Dick Youngscap, it was clear that moving less dirt reduced "costs to build" which impacted costs to recapture investment (read initiations/dues/green fees).

There's a clear corelation between costs to acquire/build and initiations/dues/greenfees.


Golf is like any other business.  If there is high demand for a product, the price for that product will rise. 

Then why are Seminole, Shinnecock, Merion, NGLA, Pine Valley and others so relatively cheap to join ?


Just look at the initiation fees at places like Sebonack and Ballyneal. 

That's probably the worst example you could use.

Do you think that there's a greater demand to get into Shinnecock and NGLA or Sebonack ?

The acquisition costs for Sebonack and Ballyneal were dramatically different, to the tune of millions and millions of dollars.
In addition, the demograhic is enormously different.  Ballyneal is in the middle of nowhere, dependent upon outsiders, Sebonack is in the heart of one of the wealthiest areas in the country with supporting local population.
Getting into golf clubs on the East End of LI is also a very, very difficult process.
Hence demand is a factor with limited availability applicable to that wealthy population.



However, I am sure your skills in not moving a lot of dirt, yet producing a world class golf course is one of your strongest selling points to the developer.  But that is a side of golf that I am not involved in and honestly not interested in.

Do you think a developer wants to spend millions more, but, not be assured of an incrementally better product, or that by spending more, it will take him longer to recapture his investment ?
Surely, you have to be interested in acquisition costs and the costs to build and how they impact the costs to the developer and the ultimate user.
If the developer can't recapture his investment, due to increased costs, will he embark upon the project in the first place ?

It would seem that dismissing what nature has to offer and crafting the product in a cookie cutter process, with bulldozers/backhoes and Bobcats, would be an indication of a lack of talent on the part of the architect.

Now, like you, I'm all for manufactured products when they turn out like NGLA, but, by inherently ignoring the natural features, wouldn't one have to question the ability of the architect to create a unique product ?


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