[Jonathan Mallard]

Interesting photographs. They rebuilt the green it seems mainly for drainage issues. They also decided to lengthen the green to gain more pinnable locations to save on wear.

http://www.crudenbaylinks.blogspot.com/2012/12/rebuilding-bathtub-14th-green.html

[Niall C]

Jonathon

Many thanks for the link, great photos. A couple of comments;

1 - in light of the uproar by some on the TOC changes, interesting to contrast the changes here with TOC; both courses are fine old links courses with an international reputation; both courses have had a wee bit of Old Tom in them; both have evolved over a number of years with frequent changes up to the golden age; and changes in each implemented by local greenstaff with greenkeeping issues mainly in mind. I wonder if they had a public consultation before undertaking the work ?
2 - interesting to see the layer of clay built into the green to hold water. Perhaps that was what the dark matter was on the 11th at TOC ?

Niall

[John Mayhugh]

Jonathan,
Thanks for that link.  Really interesting to look at the process.

Not having played there, thoughts on how the extension of the green will affect the way the hole plays?  Hard to tell from the photo if the steep slope in front remains.

[David_Tepper]

At tip of the hat to Cruden Bay for establishing and maintaining such an informative blog on this project.

[Tom_Doak]

in light of the uproar by some on the TOC changes, interesting to contrast the changes here with TOC; both courses are fine old links courses with an international reputation; both courses have had a wee bit of Old Tom in them; both have evolved over a number of years with frequent changes up to the golden age; and changes in each implemented by local greenstaff with greenkeeping issues mainly in mind. I wonder if they had a public consultation before undertaking the work /

Niall,

Perhaps you could compare the historical significance of the two courses.  Or, you could drop the subject of St. Andrews instead of continuing to talk about something you don't know much about.

[Joey Chase]

It is an interesting point about the construction of the green in the 1890's as having a clay layer below the surface like that.  I wonder if there were a lot of greens built this way.   I have never heard that before this.  It's a really interesting blog too.

[Jon Wiggett]

Joey,

prior to irrigation being standard many greens were built in this manner called Dew Ponding so as to ensure that they would not dry out in the summer months.

Jon

[Bart Bradley]

Jonathon

Many thanks for the link, great photos. A couple of comments;

1 - in light of the uproar by some on the TOC changes, interesting to contrast the changes here with TOC; both courses are fine old links courses with an international reputation; both courses have had a wee bit of Old Tom in them; both have evolved over a number of years with frequent changes up to the golden age; and changes in each implemented by local greenstaff with greenkeeping issues mainly in mind. I wonder if they had a public consultation before undertaking the work /

2 - interesting to see the layer of clay built into the green to hold water. Perhaps that was what the dark matter was on the 11th ?

Niall

Niall:

I believe nearly everyone would understand if the Old Course were being changed for preservation/maintenance purposes.  That is simply not the case with the current changes in St. Andrews.

[Cristian]

What's this loose your ball rough behind 15 tee just 3 or 4 yards off the 14th green?   Surely not for safety reasons, as I would think one would have to wait approaching 14 after players have teed off on 15 anyway....?

[Niall C]

It is an interesting point about the construction of the green in the 1890's as having a clay layer below the surface like that.  I wonder if there were a lot of greens built this way.   I have never heard that before this.  It's a really interesting blog too.

Joey

I believe it was quite common on links courses built before turn of the century before irrigation of greens and have heard about it at Silloth and elsewhere. It was used as a means of trapping water and stopping the green drying out completely.

Niall

[Niall C]

in light of the uproar by some on the TOC changes, interesting to contrast the changes here with TOC; both courses are fine old links courses with an international reputation; both courses have had a wee bit of Old Tom in them; both have evolved over a number of years with frequent changes up to the golden age; and changes in each implemented by local greenstaff with greenkeeping issues mainly in mind. I wonder if they had a public consultation before undertaking the work /

Niall,

Perhaps you could compare the historical significance of the two courses.  Or, you could drop the subject of St. Andrews instead of continuing to talk about something you don't know much about.

Tom

I take it your remark is because I don't prescribe to the TOC is a sacred monument that has provided inspiration to every golf course architect ever born school of thought ? I know very well the place of St Andrews and the Old Course in the game of golf if that is what you refer to. I also have a pretty decent grasp of the evolution of Cruden Bay and its place in the game over the years. I just don't believe that TOC is untouchable nor do I think it needs a United Nations resolution in order to make any changes. What is happening at Cruden Bay (is Frank Pont involved ?) is the sort of thing that would have happened at TOC and pretty well every other links over the years. Its not a big budget wholesale makeover a la Wentworth or some American country club, but instead a considered tweak of what is already there with agronomy and playability reasons core to any changes.

Niall   

[Adam Lawrence]

There are loads of old greens built with a clay layer, and people were building them like that much later than you'd think. One of the reasons Frank P had to rebuild Alison's green at Royal Hague was the clay layer - and they were built in the late 30s. At Ham Manor in Sussex, a Colt course from the 1930s they still have 14 dewpond greens.

[Bill_McBride]

Does the clay slope for drainage once the water seeps down through the sandy part?

[Frank Pont]

The turf of the 14th green was changed about every 2 years in the time I worked at Cruden Bay.

What we found is that that area of the course (14-16) gets a lot of sand blow from the beach.
When we renovated the entrance to the 14th green we found there was 50-100 cm (20-40 inches) of sand blow on top of the original fairway topsoil.

The old retired head green keeper told me an interesting story about this green.
They had a very strong storm one night and in the morning found that a foot of sand had blown on the green.
They removed it using a railway sleeper pulled behind a tractor.....
After hearing this story I wasn't very concerned about retaining the "historic" shape of the 14 th green.

In any case I must say the green shape wasn't particularly interesting, and given the bathtub style of the green and the blind shot into the green maybe that isn't that important.

[Frank Pont]

Btw, to avoid any potential misunderstandings, I think what is happening at Cruden is completely different in scale and impact to what is happening at TOC

[Chris Kane]

I wonder if they had a public consultation before undertaking the work ?

Public consultation? Unlike St Andrews, Cruden Bay is a private club. I presume they consulted with their members.

[ward peyronnin]

Frank

Excellent point about the sand blow's.

I have read accounts I believe in the club history that recount storms so violent that sand/dune blows completely covered portions of roadways to the point that it was deemed better to reroute the road than dig out all the sand. This is an evolvoving landscape.

[Niall C]

Chris

"Consulted" can mean a lot of things from "what do you think ?" to "this is what we're going to do". I suspect at Cruden Bay that might have meant the latter given the nature of the work but perhaps not. I suspect at TOC the consultation with the local clubs might have been similar. While one might be managed/owned by a private club and one by a Trust set up by statutory authority, both courses are effectively managed by Committee (I assume thats the case at Cruden Bay) so maybe not so different than you might think.

Frank

Agree with your thoughts on the significance of the green contours on the 14th. Did you do a contour map of the green in any case before the work started and did you core samples before hand to determine the amount of sand blow, where the clay layer was etc or was that not much of a consideration ?

Niall

[Jud_T]

What we found is that that area of the course (14-16) gets a lot of sand blow from the beach.
When we renovated the entrance to the 14th green we found there was 50-100 cm (20-40 inches) of sand blow on top of the original fairway topsoil.

 

[Frank Pont]

Frank

Agree with your thoughts on the significance of the green contours on the 14th. Did you do a contour map of the green in any case before the work started and did you core samples before hand to determine the amount of sand blow, where the clay layer was etc or was that not much of a consideration ?

Niall

Niall,

I wasn't involved with the returfing of green 14, it was a pure green keeping event putting gras sods back on the old surface with no re-shaping done, so no need for a contour map. Not sure they at that time ever did a core sample, if so I was never told of it.

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