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Cameron DeVries

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Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« on: December 12, 2012, 08:10:56 PM »
Question to architects:

what is the steepest uphill terrain you've ever built a par 3 on (in terms of elevation from tee to green)?  In other words, how high was the green in relation to the tee? 

I can only guess that downhill terrain would be slightly easier to build on if only for the fact that the green is not blind to the player and would not require too much extra earthmoving to prevent a blind or impossible tee shot.  But with an severe uphill par 3 it seems like there could be many problems (e.g. players not able to hit ball high enough to clear slope, blind tee shot, players can't hold ball on green, etc) architecturally/playability wise, not to mention construction difficulties. 

As a hypothetical example/question: an area of land is designated for a long uphill par 3 (200 yards), rising 43 feet from tee to green.  However, there is a forced carry from the back tee of 175 yards over a deep hazard.  Could this hole fly? and would it be playable for anyone but the pro or would you have to elevate the tee box to make the 175 yd. hazard carry more manageable?

I think the 3rd at Pasatiempo @ 217 yards is about 70 feet uphill from tee to green, but without a forced carry it is still very playable.
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Jeb Bearer

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 08:47:14 PM »
Not a par 3, but the second shot to the third at Highlands CC in Highlands, NC must play around 70 feet uphill. It's certainly unique and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad hole, but I wouldn't want to play that kind of hole more than very rarely.
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Jason Thurman

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 09:03:58 PM »
I'm not an architect, but I'll show a few examples of some of the steepest uphill par 3s I've played:

4th at Lawsonia:



14 at The Prairie Club - Dunes:



I love both of these holes, and tend to love uphill par 3s in general, though there are definitely limitations to how much uphill they should play.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:34:20 PM by Jason Thurman »
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Doug Siebert

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 10:02:30 PM »
I don't think the 4th at Lawsonia is all that steep.  I can't think of a par 3 with a greater rise I've played on a well known course, at least off the top of my head, but on the type of courses that don't rate national or even state wide notice, I think they're fairly common.  The guys who designed those had to cram 9 or 18 holes into a limited amount of land, and couldn't move thousands of yards of dirt to soften a steep slope.  I can think of three par 3s within 30 minutes of where I live that make the 4th at Lawsonia look practically flat by comparison.

I don't know the rise in feet, but one in particular is a 180 yard hole and you look down on the tops of mature oaks that are between the tee and the previous green.  I used to hit it so high that I added little or nothing to account for uphill when figuring my yardage/club, but back when I played there occasionally in the 90s I had to add a whole club on that one since the top of the hill was 2/3 the height of what was back then a 7 iron of almost ridiculous trajectory (I'm a picker, no de-lofting at impact for me ;))  The regular mens tee is about 25 yards up and built up on a mound about 15 feet higher than the 180 tee, and the women's tee further up still, otherwise it would be practically unplayable for 95% of golfers.
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Alex Miller

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2012, 10:15:48 PM »
The 3rd at Wolf Creek in Nevada is 85 feet uphill! I found it a little too much, but that course does push some extremes.

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Andy Troeger

Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 10:28:32 PM »
Alex,
I was wondering about that Wolf Creek hole--its a bit much. I didn't realize the 3rd at Pasatiempo was that far uphill--its a great hole. Apparently 70 feet is my cut off!
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Jason Thurman

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 10:37:08 PM »
Doug,

I agree it's not that steep. I did, however, have a photo of it, which made it a better candidate for posting than some of the holes I can think of on less heralded courses.

There's a par 3 at Pleasant View in Madison, WI that plays too uphill to be practical. I think it's the 7th hole on one of their three nines. I don't remember the yardage, but I remember it's long enough and steep enough that I always felt like the best play was a huge cut 5w, almost like a flop shot from around 200 yards.
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Cameron DeVries

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 11:03:38 PM »
wow 85 ft. uphill, that is wild!  I like uphill par 3s, but I usually prefer tee shots where at least part of the green is visible.  As for the 3rd at pasatiempo I have a hard time believing it's really a 70 ft. rise although I usually have to hit 2 clubs more off the tee.  My information is courtesy of Google Earth which is not all that accurate when it comes to elevations.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 12:04:42 AM »
Quote from: Cameron DeVries on December 12, 2012, 11:03:38 PM
As for the 3rd at pasatiempo I have a hard time believing it's really a 70 ft. rise although I usually have to hit 2 clubs more off the tee.  My information is courtesy of Google Earth which is not all that accurate when it comes to elevations.

Cameron:

I don't think your number for Pasatiempo is correct.  I remember for certain that #2 is 90 feet downhill from tee to green.  The third tee is considerably higher than #2 green, and the third green is nowhere near #2 tee.  I would guess the hole is only 30 feet uphill, maybe 40 feet.  I'll try to remember to check it on the map when I get home in a couple of days.

The Wolf Creek hole is not just wild, it's pretty silly.  That was the most severe hole I could think of, too.  The 5th at Painswick is probably only 30-40 feet uphill from tee to green, but it goes over a much higher hill in between ... that was a good one.

The third hole at Gullane #2 has got to be up there, too.  I would guess that one at 60-70 feet uphill, but I don't have a map to check it.
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Scott Warren

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 12:18:56 AM »
Wouldn't the amount of acceptable elevation from tee to green depend on the distance between the two?

The 1st hole at The Addington is fairly steep uphill at only about 160 yards.


The 3rd hole at St Michael's in Sydney is ridiculously uphill.


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Cameron DeVries

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 01:09:35 AM »
Tom-  yeah 30 or 40 ft. seems about right.  after looking at some photos of the 3rd tee shot to jog my memory there is no way it's 70 ft.  maybe 70 ft to the house behind the green!

Scott-  I guess it all depends on the distance as well as the slope; a gradual steep rise wouldn't be as intimidating as a severe uphill cliff.  Looking at your photo of the 3rd hole @ St. Michael's this is very similar to the property & elevation of the 'hypothetical' example I was thinking off - it does seem pretty extreme but might be fun to play from time to time.  I would think that a severe upslope on a short par three wouldn't be as demanding because a wedge or short iron can be lofted so much higher.  Off hand, I would say the 8th hole at Max Behr's semi-intact Montecito Country Club is the steepest short hole I've played.  It is all of 108 yards with a 45-50 ft. rise tee to green in the form of a cliff-like hill.  Even with the severe uphill it is a wedge or sand wedge and eminently playable.
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Sean_A

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 02:08:13 AM »
I also think it makes a difference if the tee is set back from the rise.  Take Painswick's 5th for example.  Its a short hole that rises quite high - maybe 50 feet?  But the tee is well short of where the steep grade begins so the arc of the shot can still be achieved.  I still think its a poor hole, but not too steep IF the rough on the hill were kept at a reasonable height.


Ciao
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Anders Rytter

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2012, 03:14:35 AM »
13th at Arrowhead (Colorado) is severly down hill. (borrowed from rockies golf)


12th on Lundin Links is one of the most uphill holes i've played. 13th on Crail and 9th at Crystal Downs are also a fair bit uphill, but not that severe.

Lundin


Crail


Crystal Downs (borrowed from GCA)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 04:26:29 AM by Anders Rytter »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2012, 03:55:05 AM »
The third at Gullane 2 came to my mind, too.  As did 16 at Crail Balcomie (a steeper rise, I think, than 13), 11 at Alwoodley and 6 at Bamburgh Castle.  13 at Muirfield is fairly uphill, too.
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2012, 04:45:22 AM »
Isn't the third at Gullane 2 a short par-4?

And Sean - sorry to be a pedantic pain.... But the arc of the shot isn't affected at all by whether the hill is a steep rise after the flat (i.e. concave in cross-section) or whether it is a gradual straight rise from the tee... Unless you have a convex land formation... In which case it would be blind...

It's just perception...
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2012, 05:03:53 AM »
Ally, I think it's a par 3 except when played by pros, who get it as a par 4!
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Sean_A

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2012, 06:45:37 AM »
Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on December 13, 2012, 04:45:22 AM
Isn't the third at Gullane 2 a short par-4?

And Sean - sorry to be a pedantic pain.... But the arc of the shot isn't affected at all by whether the hill is a steep rise after the flat (i.e. concave in cross-section) or whether it is a gradual straight rise from the tee... Unless you have a convex land formation... In which case it would be blind...

It's just perception...


I was a bit confusing.  What I meant was if the steep hill is directly in front of the golfer, most have to take a less lofted club to climb the hill rather than fly the hill (most don't have that shot just as most can't flly over trees when they are close behind them) - hence the arc is flattened by club selection.  If further back, such as at Painswick, I can still hit a 9 iron because I know the ball is essentially falling straight down on the target when the shot is on the bottom part of the arc.  Either way, its a poor hole; partly because of the elevation change, partly because of the rough on the hill and partly because the green is too small for the shot requirement.     

Ciao
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Carl Rogers

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2012, 07:08:59 AM »
I wonder if anyone has some pics from Ballyhack.  Green sites at Holes 1, 5 & 11 are severely up hill, too steep for the short hitter ... 9 also.  Holes 6 & 12 are extremely down hill.

Approach shot at no. 9 at Tobacco Road is too steep for me.
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John Kirk

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2012, 10:00:45 AM »
#13 at Sand Hills is significantly uphill.  It's about 220 yards from the back tees.

I don't think a 175 yard carry on a steeply uphill par 3 sounds too good.  I guess it depends on how far the carry is from the shorter tees, with maximum carry of about 60-70 yards acceptable from the shortest tee.  Does that sound about right?  The downhill carry at Pasatiempo #18 from the shortest tee is about 70 yards.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2012, 10:45:37 AM »
#8 at Deerfield (a now public course in Delaware; Gordon) is a pretty good uphill par 3 at 225 yards.  Total guess here is the climb of about 40 feet.  And I'm not sure it would work as well if any steeper.

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Cameron DeVries

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2012, 11:05:34 AM »
Jason, I like the look of both those holes.  They are uphill, but not overly intimidating to look at.

Sean, painswick 5 is about the height of Montecito CC 8, can I ask what the length of the hole is? 

Anders, yeah that Lundin hole looks pretty extreme!  The crail hole looks good too.

John, For the example I was thinking of the shorter tee would be about 120 yards with no forced carry.  Yeah, I think 175 yd steep uphill over a hazard is a bit too much, if only because many players couldn't get the ball high enough with a long iron or wood.  18 @ pasatiempo is good as you pointed out because it has variety in the tees and plays somewhat downhill to augment the forced carry.

Joe, 8 @ deerfield looks similar to 3 @ pasa - about the same length and rise.  I agree that any steeper than that could become a problem.

     Sometimes I wonder if the sharply downhill holes play more difficult than the uphills at times because of problems judging spin & distance.  The 11th at Sandpiper is a local hole with a severe dropoff to the green.  It seems to be tougher than any uphill hole I can think of from the back tee.


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Sean_A

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2012, 12:31:07 PM »
Cameron

I don't know, maybe 115?

Looking at Joe's photo of a 40 foot height...maybe Painswick's 5th is much higher than 50 feet?  I really don't know other than its bloody steep!


Ciao 
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John Mayhugh

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2012, 01:06:46 PM »
Quote from: Alex Miller on December 12, 2012, 10:15:48 PM
The 3rd at Wolf Creek in Nevada is 85 feet uphill! I found it a little too much, but that course does push some extremes.

An intimidating tee shot, for sure.  Too much uphill for the distance (175 yards).



Length of the hole really affects how much uphill you can get away with. Agreed that the 3rd at Wolf Creek is overdone, but I'm not sure the tee shot is much tougher than playing the 6th at French Lick (210 yards and maybe 25 feet uphill).


Sean,
The Painswick website refers to the fort ramparts as 70 feet high. I do know it's a climb.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2012, 07:39:30 PM »
Even with the flattening effects of photography, the 15th at CC Troy is massively uphill. It is a 130 yard pitch that demands 1-2 clubs more.


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Brian_Ewen

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Re: Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a par 3]
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2012, 08:00:51 PM »
This has been done before.

The winner is always the 3rd at Craigie Hill.







« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 08:11:55 PM by Brian_Ewen »
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