[Patrick_Mucci]

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?

[J_ Crisham]

Pat,
       A hard right to left wind would make this a very scary shot- the distance appears to be 200 plus given the club in the players hands. Left looks like death to me. Out of curiousity where is this course?

[Jason Thurman]

It looks to me like the Dye Course at French Lick, which I hope to play in the next year or so.

It's obviously a visually intimidating shot. I agree it's terrifying in a right to left wind, or into a headwind when the ball is harder to control.

Of course, right might be an even worse miss than left, particularly for a weak bunker player.

I wonder, though, is the visual intimidation on this hole any higher than the ACTUAL intimidation? Put another way, it looks like a VERY hard shot and likely also IS a VERY hard shot.

I wonder if there are good examples of visually intimidating shots that actually aren't all that difficult. Those types of shots abound at places like Tobacco Road.

[Bill Brightly]

When did Mucci start posting photos

Someone's job description must have changed in the office!

[Patrick_Mucci]

When did Mucci start posting photos

Someone's job description must have changed in the office!

Bill, I still don't know how to post photos, I just copied this one from another thread.

[Jason Topp]

Visually I would want to bail out right but the recovery is probably more reasonable from the left. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Visually I would want to bail out right but the recovery is probably more reasonable from the left. 

Jason,

You wouldn't find recovering from the right, to a left side hole location frightening ?

[Ben Sims]

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?

A bit uncomfortable, but not cleaning out my shorts either.  It's a tough shot, but there is plenty of bad-ish shots that will result in manageable misses.  

I guess you could say it sends negative signals, because I'm automatically trying to figure out a yardage to the front of the green and deciphering where a fanned miss is going to land.  No way I'm hitting a club that would carry anywhere beyond about 3 paces onto the surface.

No, this does not bolster my confidence in any way.  It's a tough shot for me, my mid-iron draws have a way of overcooking about 50% of the time I try them.  

If the wind is left to right, I'd let it rip and aim for the green with a fade swing.  If it's a tailwind, same thing.  If there is even a hint of right to left or headwind, I'm aiming for the right side of the green (maybe even the first right-side bunker) with an extra club and choking down a bit.

[Chip Gaskins]

Pat

Are you posting pictures???  No more green ink?

As someone who plays right to left that shot scares me to death.  I would bunt a low teed slice driver and move on.

Any chance Notre Dame wins it all?

Hope you are well.

[Jeb Bearer]

Here's the exact same hole with different visuals.




Forgive the god-awful photoshop job.

[Carl Nichols]

It would be more intimidating without those bunkers on the left-hand side of the green. 

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's another hole, similar in concept, but even more intimidating.  You can click on the picture to get a bigger more butt puckering view.  The flag is between our heads.



Re you initial questions:

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?  Of course, who wouldn't be uncomfortable when faced with these kind of holes?

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?  Of course, and probably to my brain too.

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?  No, does it for you?

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?  Wind makes it worse.

Isn't playing golf all about the visuals?  Or, do you play heads down off of yardage books and maps and distances with no regard to what you see?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Re you initial questions:

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?  Of course, who wouldn't be uncomfortable when faced with these kind of holes?

A left to right golfer

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?  Of course, and probably to my brain too.

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?  No, does it for you?

It would depend on the distance and wind

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?  Wind makes it worse.

Isn't playing golf all about the visuals? 

Depends on which visuals, the visual of the target or the visual of non-target objects/features.
As an example, the visual of the clubhouse directly behind the 18th green at TOC doesn't affect me.
But, the slightest visual of the fronting  "road hole" bunker perimeter on # 7 at NGLA does affect me.

On the picture I posted, the vast falloff seems to divert your focus from the target, to the left and to the back of the target even though those areas aren't in play.

So, a related question would be, how do visuals of objects/features not in play influence you ?

Or, do you play heads down off of yardage books and maps and distances with no regard to what you see?.

I generally play with my head down and my eyes focused on the back of the golf ball to the exclusion of everything else.

Perhaps your failure to do the same is responsible for the high scores you're posting.

[Bryan Izatt]

Re you initial questions:

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?  Of course, who wouldn't be uncomfortable when faced with these kind of holes?

A left to right golfer

With the 30 mph trade wind roaring in and up the cliff, there is no shot shape that's going to stand up.

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?  Of course, and probably to my brain too.

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?  No, does it for you?

It would depend on the distance and wind

Really, the visuals would "bolster" your confidence.  You must be a confident man (although that's really no surprise)   

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?  Wind makes it worse.

Isn't playing golf all about the visuals? 

Depends on which visuals, the visual of the target or the visual of non-target objects/features.
As an example, the visual of the clubhouse directly behind the 18th green at TOC doesn't affect me.
But, the slightest visual of the fronting  "road hole" bunker perimeter on # 7 at NGLA does affect me.

On the picture I posted, the vast falloff seems to divert your focus from the target, to the left and to the back of the target even though those areas aren't in play.

So, a related question would be, how do visuals of objects/features not in play influence you ?

In either picture, or in playing either hole, I find it hard to fathom that you would feel that the "vast falloff" areas aren't in play.  In my pictured hole that fall off is mere steps from the edge of the green.  How is that out of play.

If features are truly not in play then the visuals don't really affect me.  How far off do features have to be before you feel they are not in play?

Or, do you play heads down off of yardage books and maps and distances with no regard to what you see?.

I generally play with my head down and my eyes focused on the back of the golf ball to the exclusion of everything else.

Perhaps your failure to do the same is responsible for the high scores you're posting.

Perhaps that's true.  I suppose you don't visualize your shots in the context of the target and the surrounding features.  Or do you wipe your mind clear when staring at the back of the ball.  Or, do you have short term memory problems that help in this instance?   

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

I think that hole fits my eye pretty well, despite my misses going left far more often than they go right.  The green appears to be angled in the photo, which is the key that makes me feel comfortable with it.  If it was angled the other way, I would probably be a bit twitchy on the tee

The penalty for going left doesn't seem that extreme, the bunker has a flat bottom and the slope in front of it isn't too sharp.  Obviously you don't want to miss left of the bunker or hit over it as you may lose the ball, but if I was at all uncertain about the shot I'd probably play for the front right to give myself a nice margin for error.  I think a wind helping to the right would be more problematic for that safe shot than a straight right to left wind - there's room to aim right of the green and let the wind work it back in.  If it doesn't come back, that bunker on the right is probably not an easy up and down, but it isn't likely to lead to anything worse than a bogey.

This really reminds me of a hole I play frequently, except it has no bunkers.  If you miss left you're in the rough on a severe slope, if you really miss left you're poking and hoping in the long grass.  But the area to the right is closely mown halfway up the hill and while there's rough above it isn't long grass until the very top of the hill, so when the prevailing right to left wind is blowing, the smart shot is to aim it right of the green.  If the wind blows it back, great.  If not, it'll kick down off the hill and catch the right side of the green.  That carom shot is obviously not possible on Dye's version...

[Sean_A]

Yes, the hole looks like it would make me feel uncomfortable. 

Yes, I do get a negative vibe when looking at the pic in that I am looking at places to miss right - the bunker(s) don't look bad.

Wind direction would surely make a difference.  Personally, seeing the hole from a defensive PoV (playing for bogey), I would prefer a left to right wind. 

Ciao

[Neil White]

Patrick,

Not answering your immediate question, but as a hole it doesn't sit well into the slope - with four distinct levels present, bunker left, green, bunker right, top of mound.

From looking at the photo it would seem there is more space left than actually appears and an additional tee, however I suppose from this view you are playing more across the slope as opposed to slightly up it from the lower tee.

Visually the hole is stunning with its expansive view and is considerably better than the second visual provided by Jeb which gives the hole a very claustrophobic feel - it would be interesting to get a picture when the trees are no longer in leaf - I think without the feeling of depth the trees left and rear give the hole would feel even more open and possibly more uncomfortable?

If you should be playing it with a fair to medium right to left wind then it doesn't offer up many alternative plays, although the front of the green does appear to fairly wide open so as to be able to accept a low draw but that would be a tricky proposition.

Neil.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Re you initial questions:

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?  Of course, who wouldn't be uncomfortable when faced with these kind of holes?

A left to right golfer

With the 30 mph trade wind roaring in and up the cliff, there is no shot shape that's going to stand up.
Bryan, that's where your lack of playing experience betrays you.
A very low fade or draw would work well in that wind

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?  Of course, and probably to my brain too.

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?  No, does it for you?

It would depend on the distance and wind

Really, the visuals would "bolster" your confidence.  You must be a confident man (although that's really no surprise)  
Some holes appeal to the golfers eye, based upon the way he shapes his shots.
To the left to right golfer, this hole would bolster his confidence since he would be playing away from the trouble, versus someone whose shaped shot would be playing toward it.

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?  Wind makes it worse.

Isn't playing golf all about the visuals?  

Depends on which visuals, the visual of the target or the visual of non-target objects/features.
As an example, the visual of the clubhouse directly behind the 18th green at TOC doesn't affect me.
But, the slightest visual of the fronting  "road hole" bunker perimeter on # 7 at NGLA does affect me.

On the picture I posted, the vast falloff seems to divert your focus from the target, to the left and to the back of the target even though those areas aren't in play.

So, a related question would be, how do visuals of objects/features not in play influence you ?

In either picture, or in playing either hole, I find it hard to fathom that you would feel that the "vast falloff" areas aren't in play.  In my pictured hole that fall off is mere steps from the edge of the green.  How is that out of play.[/size]

Bryan, I posted a picture of a specific hole for discussion purposes.
If you want to discuss another hole I'd suggest that you start a new thread.
I really don't care about your picture, the hole pictured or comments about that hole.

As to the hole I posted, the left side bunker is a "catch" bunker and the visual falloff beyond that is mostly out of play unless you routinely hit the ball 35 yards off line with an iron.



If features are truly not in play then the visuals don't really affect me.


How far off do features have to be before you feel they are not in play?


That would depend how I'm playing on any given day.

Or, do you play heads down off of yardage books and maps and distances with no regard to what you see?.

I generally play with my head down and my eyes focused on the back of the golf ball to the exclusion of everything else.

Perhaps your failure to do the same is responsible for the high scores you're posting.

Perhaps that's true.  I suppose you don't visualize your shots in the context of the target and the surrounding features.  Or do you wipe your mind clear when staring at the back of the ball.  Or, do you have short term memory problems that help in this instance?  

My shot visualization tends to be confined to my target and not the surrounding features.

I wipe my mind clear when staring at the back of the ball, and try to focus on a low, slow takeaway and the intended trajectory of the shot.

Short term memory problems are often a blessing when playing golf.

[Bryan Izatt]

Re you initial questions:

make you uncomfortable as you view the target green ?  Of course, who wouldn't be uncomfortable when faced with these kind of holes?

A left to right golfer

With the 30 mph trade wind roaring in and up the cliff, there is no shot shape that's going to stand up.

Bryan, that's where your lack of playing experience betrays you.
A very low fade or draw would work well in that wind

Really?  How would you know what my playing experience is?

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?  Of course, and probably to my brain too.

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?  No, does it for you?

It would depend on the distance and wind

Really, the visuals would "bolster" your confidence.  You must be a confident man (although that's really no surprise)   

Some holes appeal to the golfers eye, based upon the way he shapes his shots.
To the left to right golfer, this hole would bolster his confidence since he would be playing away from the trouble, versus someone whose shaped shot would be playing toward it.

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?  Wind makes it worse.

Isn't playing golf all about the visuals? 

Depends on which visuals, the visual of the target or the visual of non-target objects/features.
As an example, the visual of the clubhouse directly behind the 18th green at TOC doesn't affect me.
But, the slightest visual of the fronting  "road hole" bunker perimeter on # 7 at NGLA does affect me.

On the picture I posted, the vast falloff seems to divert your focus from the target, to the left and to the back of the target even though those areas aren't in play.

So, a related question would be, how do visuals of objects/features not in play influence you ?

In either picture, or in playing either hole, I find it hard to fathom that you would feel that the "vast falloff" areas aren't in play.  In my pictured hole that fall off is mere steps from the edge of the green.  How is that out of play.[/size]

Bryan, I posted a picture of a specific hole for discussion purposes.
If you want to discuss another hole I'd suggest that you start a new thread.
I really don't care about your picture, the hole pictured or comments about that hole.

As to the hole I posted, the left side bunker is a "catch" bunker and the visual falloff beyond that is mostly out of play unless you routinely hit the ball 35 yards off line with an iron.

It is 17 yards from the edge of the green to the falloff (real as well as visual) and maybe 35 yards from the centre of a narrow green.    The hole plays more than 200 yards (looks like Bradley has a metal wood in hand), so at my level of play missing a green by 17 yards from 200 yards is certainly a good (bad) possibility.  Of course, you play the game at a different level than I do apparently.  Your out-of-play apparently isn't the same as mine.




If features are truly not in play then the visuals don't really affect me.


How far off do features have to be before you feel they are not in play?


That would depend how I'm playing on any given day.

Or, do you play heads down off of yardage books and maps and distances with no regard to what you see?.

I generally play with my head down and my eyes focused on the back of the golf ball to the exclusion of everything else.

Perhaps your failure to do the same is responsible for the high scores you're posting.

Perhaps that's true.  I suppose you don't visualize your shots in the context of the target and the surrounding features.  Or do you wipe your mind clear when staring at the back of the ball.  Or, do you have short term memory problems that help in this instance?   

My shot visualization tends to be confined to my target and not the surrounding features.

I wipe my mind clear when staring at the back of the ball, and try to focus on a low, slow takeaway and the intended trajectory of the shot.

Short term memory problems are often a blessing when playing golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

With the 30 mph trade wind roaring in and up the cliff, there is no shot shape that's going to stand up.


Bryan, that's where your lack of playing experience betrays you.
A very low fade or draw would work well in that wind

Really?  How would you know what my playing experience is?

By your statement above, in red.

Does it send negative defensive signals to your eye ?  Of course, and probably to my brain too.

Or, does it bolster your confidence ?  No, does it for you?

It would depend on the distance and wind

Really, the visuals would "bolster" your confidence.  You must be a confident man (although that's really no surprise)   


Some holes appeal to the golfers eye, based upon the way he shapes his shots.
To the left to right golfer, this hole would bolster his confidence since he would be playing away from the trouble, versus someone whose shaped shot would be playing toward it.

And, how would different wind directions impact your visual instincts ?  Wind makes it worse.

Not if it's at your back or over your left shoulder.

Isn't playing golf all about the visuals? 


Depends on which visuals, the visual of the target or the visual of non-target objects/features.
As an example, the visual of the clubhouse directly behind the 18th green at TOC doesn't affect me.
But, the slightest visual of the fronting  "road hole" bunker perimeter on # 7 at NGLA does affect me.

On the picture I posted, the vast falloff seems to divert your focus from the target, to the left and to the back of the target even though those areas aren't in play.

So, a related question would be, how do visuals of objects/features not in play influence you ?

In either picture, or in playing either hole, I find it hard to fathom that you would feel that the "vast falloff" areas aren't in play.  In my pictured hole that fall off is mere steps from the edge of the green.  How is that out of play.[/size]

Bryan, I posted a picture of a specific hole for discussion purposes.
If you want to discuss another hole I'd suggest that you start a new thread.
I really don't care about your picture, the hole pictured or comments about that hole.

As to the hole I posted, the left side bunker is a "catch" bunker and the visual falloff beyond that is mostly out of play unless you routinely hit the ball 35 yards off line with an iron.

It is 17 yards from the edge of the green to the falloff (real as well as visual) and maybe 35 yards from the centre of a narrow green.  [/color]

I think you have to extend the distance to the area to the left of the "catch" bunker, and, if you add in reasonable margins, from the right center, not the center of the green. 


The hole plays more than 200 yards (looks like Bradley has a metal wood in hand), so at my level of play missing a green by 17 yards from 200 yards is certainly a good (bad) possibility. [/size]

I don't know about that.
Looks to me like there's plenty of teeing area in front of the shadow and it even looks like another teeing area on a lower level.

If it's the 4th hole or 13th hole it plays to the following yardages,

                  4th            13th

                122             111
                165             152
                191             162
                211             181
                251             208

Shouldn't we evaluate a hole from more than one set of tees ?

Of course, you play the game at a different level than I do apparently. 
Your out-of-play apparently isn't the same as mine.

Look at the "out-of-play" margins in the context of the distances posted above.
And, by out of play, I mean left of the bunker below the left side of the green.
[/color][/size]

[Doug Siebert]

Is anyone other than Patrick and Bryan able to follow a conversation with that many colors?  This must be what it feels like to have epilepsy!

[Charlie_Bell]

Or to write only with crayons.

[Steve Burrows]

Pat,

Have you made your way to southern Indiana recently to play golf?  Because surely you wouldn't presume to evaluate the merit and/or playing characteristics of a given golf hole from only a picture and without playing it.  Many a person on this site has been scolded by you for such actions.

[Bryan Izatt]

Steve,

Amen.


Doug,

It's not really a conversation.  It's more like who gets in the last word before we run out of colours.  Of course, Patrick always wins.  He's dogged in pursuit of the last word.


Patrick,

.............................

As to the hole I posted, the left side bunker is a "catch" bunker and the visual falloff beyond that is mostly out of play unless you routinely hit the ball 35 yards off line with an iron.

It is 17 yards from the edge of the green to the falloff (real as well as visual) and maybe 35 yards from the centre of a narrow green.  [/color]

I think you have to extend the distance to the area to the left of the "catch" bunker, and, if you add in reasonable margins, from the right center, not the center of the green.

Patrick,

The 35 yards was a generous margin to past the bunker.  Using the right centre of the green will add a few yards, but it is a narrow green. Again your accuracy must be amazing.
  


The hole plays more than 200 yards (looks like Bradley has a metal wood in hand), so at my level of play missing a green by 17 yards from 200 yards is certainly a good (bad) possibility. [/size]

I don't know about that.
Looks to me like there's plenty of teeing area in front of the shadow and it even looks like another teeing area on a lower level.

If it's the 4th hole or 13th hole it plays to the following yardages,

                  4th            13th

                122             111
                165             152
                191             162
                211             181
                251             208

Shouldn't we evaluate a hole from more than one set of tees ?

Patrick,

It's the 4th not the 13th.

You could look at the aerial of the course to help you see which tee that is.  Ooops, sorry, you won't be able to see it on Google Earth.  Their image is older than the course.  Try Bing instead.  The hole is around 200 from that tee.  No doubt an easy iron shot for you, if not most of us.

Sure, what's your point about different tees?  For me, from 251 yards it is more visually intimidating and the strategic decision is whether to hit driver to the front edge, like an idiot, or where to lay up.  From the 165 yard tee, it's a lot less intimidating.  From the front tees it should be a piece of cake.

But, perhaps Steve is right.  Neither of us should evaluate since neither of us have played there.  But, where would the fun in that be?  

Of course, you play the game at a different level than I do apparently.  
Your out-of-play apparently isn't the same as mine.

Look at the "out-of-play" margins in the context of the distances posted above.
And, by out of play, I mean left of the bunker below the left side of the green.
[/color][/size]

Patrick,

I did.  From 211 yards the out-of-play margin is daunting.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Have you made your way to southern Indiana recently to play golf? 
Because surely you wouldn't presume to evaluate the merit and/or playing characteristics of a given golf hole from only a picture and without playing it. 

I haven't evaluated the architectural merits of the hole, nor have I commented on how it plays.

I asked about the "visual" impact based on the photo of a green perched on a ledge

When Bryan brought up his fictitious 30 mph wind I told him that you counter that with a low shot under the wind.
When Bryan said wind makes it worse, I told him that a wind at your back or over your left shoulder would help.
When Bryan assessed the distance/margin of error to the left from the center of the green at 17 yards, i told him that a prudent person would aim right of center.
When Bryan cited club use and margin of error and stated that the hole was 200 yards, I listed the tee distances on the hole, which impact margins of error.
When Bryan asked me if I played with my head down and didn't look at the visuals i told him that I look at the ball, not the visuals when I swing
When Bryan asked me how far features have to be off line before they don't affect my play I told him that it depends upon how I'm playing that day
When Bryan asked me who wouldn't be uncomfortable by the visual I told him a golfer who plays left to right

So Steve, point out for me where I evaluated the architectural merits/demerits of the hole.
Point out for me where I passed on how the hole plays

I merely responded, directly and exclusively,  to Bryan's comments.

You see, Bryan's feeling a little feisty these days and still licking his wounds from his visual faux paus related to what can be seen at Pine Valley from the train tracks.
Bryan, who had never been there, finally journeyed down and met up with Mike Cirba and discovered that what I had stated was true, that the intervening landforms blocked most of the view of the golf course and that except in one small area near # 17 tee,  the trees and underbrush blocked ones view from the tracks, and that all his red, blue and yellow lines that he had superimposed on images were meaningless.
You may have noticed a recent red line he drew in another thread which has Tiger aiming at a waitress in the clubhouse [/size][/b]

Many a person on this site has been scolded by you for such actions.

Would you cite where I evaluated the architectural merits of the hole and where I commented on how the hole plays

Perhaps you haven't been reading the jousting posts between Bryan and me carefully enough.

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