An Honest Old Course question

[Sam Morrow]

I've read bits and pieces of the outrage on the work being done on the Old Course and I realize it incites much passion and debate but what if they end up getting it right? I don't have a dog in the fight, I've never been there, it's one of my dreams in life and I will get there someday but I try to be open minded on change. If the changes turn out to be for the best will you admit it or will you stick to your guns that it's like giving the Mona Lisa a boob job?

[John Kavanaugh]

They got the bunkers at Merion right. It was the same rage and passion. Golf courses don't ask for apologies.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sam:

The problem is that the concept of what is "right" means different things to different people for different reasons.

Sven

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

The problem is that the concept of what is "right" means different things to different people for different reasons.

Sven

I think the bigger problem is getting a GCA'er to admit they are wrong.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sam,

Speaking specifically to the 11th, what distinguished that hole was the green's wild and crazy slope, especially when compared to copies. So if it looks the same and plays the same then, sure, well done to Peter Dawson!

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

Sam:

The problem is that the concept of what is "right" means different things to different people for different reasons.

Sven

I think the bigger problem is getting a GCA'er to admit they are wrong.

Sam,

When you get a little older you may be lucky enough to learn that it is enough just to know someone is wrong. There is no reason to punish someone by making them admit it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sam:

If a man is vegetarian, he's not going to admit he's wrong about eating meat no matter how well-seasoned it is.

Sven

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

If a man is vegetarian, he's not going to admit he's wrong about eating meat no matter how well-seasoned it is.

Sven

If he's a vegetarian he's not going to be eating meat in the first place.

[Sven Nilsen]

Now you get it.

[Tim_Weiman]

Sam,

St. Andrews, IMO, is not an easy course to get to know. For me, the first few trips around it were disorienting. I'd probably need at least a month to feel like I got to know the place. No other golf course in the world has made me feel that way.

So, I have generally stayed out of the discussion, feeling unqualified to offer anything other than general comments that changing golf courses to accommodate unnecessary technology in the hands of elite players makes no sense.

That aside, I do feel I can comment on the 17th hole and make the observation that I fail to see why any change was necessary.

Shouldn't we all be open minded enough to leave well enough alone?

[Jud_T]

Sam,

The question of whether the work is good or not is completely independent of the question of whether it should have been undertaken.  That's what the pragmatists don't get.  The work could be phenomenal and we'd still be right.   

[Dan King]

I don't much care if the changes are good or bad. I don't like the justification -- making it more compatible to  what pros are used to. Remember when pros had to adapt to the course, but no longer. Now courses adapt to the pros. The 11th is a perfectly fine hole for everyday play. It is the pros that show up once a decade who do not like the 11th. Screw 'em.

I've already sent a message to the Links Trust that if they go through with the changes I will never return. It won't be easy going to Scotland and avoiding St. Andrews but it is what I will do.

Cheers,
Dan King

St. Andrews? I feel like I'm back visiting an old grandmother. She's crotchety and eccentric but also elegant. Anyone who doesn't fall in love with her has no imagination.
  --Tony Lema

[Jud_T]

Dan,

I'm with you.  I sent the same email.  We can play North Berwick, Prestwick, Machrihanish and Askernish and have a dram in memorium...

[Mac Plumart]

Matthew 12:30

[David_Elvins]

If the changes turn out to be for the best will you admit it or will you stick to your guns that it's like giving the Mona Lisa a boob job?

We can already see photos of the bunkers at the second green and they are more appalling than expected.  I don't think there is any risk of anyone who criticised them ahead of their construction needing to eat their words?

[Jud_T]

Great job or lousy, it's still a really old lady with a boob job... Yuck

[Rick Shefchik]

It was never about whether it will be a better golf course after the alterations. If your dream comes true and you get to St. Andrews, you very well might love The New Old Course. But -- barring a genuine restoration -- your chance to play The Old Course is gone.

[Mac Plumart]

[Jud_T]

 

[Mac Plumart]

Jud...

sorry for doing that...but I hope it makes sort of a point.

Sam basically asks, "what if the changes are good?"

With all due respect to Sam, how can anyone even ask that question?  And if they do, they are not living in the same world as I am, hence the Matthew quote.

The Old Course has been the most mystifying golf course on the planet for 600 years.  The greatest of all-time loved the course because of its big and bold strategies, but also it subtle, and at times, hidden nuances.  These greatest of all-time include Alister Mackenzie and Bobby Jones.  In fact, the perfect example of these subtle and hidden aspects of The Old Course might have best be seen through the eyes of Bobby Jones.  He actually ripped up his scorecard in 1921 and walked off the course.  He was so frustrated and infuriated with it.  (Maybe he didn't get why the bunkers on 2 weren't near the green, like Peter Dawson).  But then he grew to love it.  So much in fact, he hired Mackenzie to build him a course in the spirit of The Old Course.

And for those 600 years, well at least as long as ratings/rankings have been in vogue, The Old Course has been rated near the tipity-top.  But the powers that be want to "improve" it.  Improve it?!?!?  It is already world-renowned, the subject of over 76 books, the inspiration for many golf course designs, and architects study it to this day.  In fact, it may have the greatest stretch of golf holes in the world with its back nine.  But yet, those are some of the holes that are going to be "improved."

Improved for what?  Tournament play for the PGA Tour pros.  The guys who espouse fair and equitable golf.  That is the whole point...and where the magic and subtle nuances lie...in the areas that are not fair or equitable.  Rub of the green.  Road Hole Bunker, 11th green, AARGH!!!!  I can't believe they are changing it, in this way, for these purposes.

What if the changes are "better", Sam?  Better for who?  Better in what way?  For a higher ranking?  That is next to impossible. I guess it could over take Pine Valley, Cyrpess Point, or RCD.  But, I doubt it.  Better for tournament play. What did Rory do at TOC last time?  That is the magic of that course.  Better for study of architecture?  Tom Doak, Brad Klein, and many others including the spirits of Alister Mackenzie and Bobby Jones just might not think that is possible.

But, alas,  'dozers are on site and bunkers on 2 have been "improved", 17th bunker is being tweaked, and the Eden green is being flattened.

 

[William_G]

Mac,

well said!

 

[Alex Miller]

In fact, the perfect example of these subtle and hidden aspects of The Old Course might have best be seen through the eyes of Bobby Jones.  He actually ripped up his scorecard in 1921 and walked off the course.  He was so frustrated and infuriated with it.  (Maybe he didn't get why the bunkers on 2 weren't near the green, like Peter Dawson). 

Great, now I'm laughing like a fool at my desk!  At least most people have left already.

There are good boob jobs and bad boob jobs, but you wouldn't give your grandmother either...

[John Kavanaugh]

Mac,

Don't you think that Bobby Jones would want to look down from heaven and see Tiger play to the pin placement on 11 that caused him so much grief?  The changes on 11 bring back that pin placement. I see that as good.

Hell, I think it is good that anyone who loves the history of golf can now play to that pin placement.

[Jud_T]

You mean the history of tournament golf...

[John Kavanaugh]

You mean the history of tournament golf...

Please, Bobby Jones is more than "tournament golf".  His meltdown at St. Andrews symbolizes all our struggles.