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John Kavanaugh

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2012, 10:30:11 AM »
Another odd staple of this argument is that I have never heard anyone outside this site whine about not being able to play a private course at their leisure.   The two courses I have wanted to play and couldn't are both public. I couldn't pull the trigger on paying $500 when I knew many on this site had played both for free through rater access. Jealousy created an issue that should have never came into play. This thread should have been titled "One of the great failings of jealousy in America".

Bob_Huntley

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2012, 11:55:20 AM »

The UK is the center of the universe when it comes to division of social classes. Lets not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to the haves and the have nots.
That certainly was true.  I really am not sure it remains the case.  This isn't a dig at the US but, divided by class as we may be, I do think there's a case to be made that the US has become more divided by class.  Whether that is a good case I don't know, what is for sure is that neither country is in a position to claim the high ground on this question.

I think Mr. Squier has it right. I am reminded of a line in G.B. Shaw's Pygmalion, " It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him". It was certainly true when I was there but that was over sixty years sho

Bob_Huntley

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2012, 01:25:08 PM »

The UK is the center of the universe when it comes to division of social classes. Lets not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to the haves and the have nots.
That certainly was true.  I really am not sure it remains the case.  This isn't a dig at the US but, divided by class as we may be, I do think there's a case to be made that the US has become more divided by class.  Whether that is a good case I don't know, what is for sure is that neither country is in a position to claim the high ground on this question.

I think Mr. Squier has it right. I am reminded of a line in G.B. Shaw's Pygmalion, " It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him". It was certainly true when I was there but that was over sixty years ago.

Stephen Davis

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2012, 02:44:26 PM »
I'm still waiting for one person on this site to name a course in America that they want to play and can't. Let's not waist our time whining about Augusta National considering it can be had also through either talent, charity or volunteerism.


John,

Since I am the one who started this thread I will happily talk about some of the courses I have always assumed I would never get the opportunity to enjoy. You have the usual characters that are considered by many to be some of the greatest courses the world has to offer, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Seminole, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, etc. There are also quite a few around the areas I have lives and that I have looked on longingly such as Riveria, LACC, Bel Air CC, Waverly CC, Castle Pines and others like that. These are some courses that I have always assumed were off limits.

Also, could you clarify what you were talking about I'm regards to Augusta.

JMEvensky

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2012, 02:53:28 PM »


Also, could you clarify what you were talking about I'm regards to Augusta.



Not JK,but maybe something like this:

Talent--win the US/British Open,US/British Amateur,or US Mid Am.

Charity--write a horse-choking sized check to the First Tee.

Volunteerism--Masters volunteers are allowed to play the golf course Monday(?) after the tournament.

Hey,JK didn't say it would be easy.

Stephen Davis

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2012, 04:59:48 PM »
Brian,

Thanks for responding. I have written letters on 3 separate occasions, none of which received a response. However, there have been many very good suggestions in this thread and I think that my previous experiences were an aberration or my choice of words was less than satisfactory. I will definitely try this method again.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2012, 05:06:42 PM »
Brian,

Thanks for responding. I have written letters on 3 separate occasions, none of which received a response. However, there have been many very good suggestions in this thread and I think that my previous experiences were an aberration or my choice of words was less than satisfactory. I will definitely try this method again.

Stephen,

I've never personally written a letter for golf.  Did you send an email or a hand written letter?

Stephen Davis

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2012, 12:59:07 AM »
Brian,

Thanks for responding. I have written letters on 3 separate occasions, none of which received a response. However, there have been many very good suggestions in this thread and I think that my previous experiences were an aberration or my choice of words was less than satisfactory. I will definitely try this method again.

Stephen,

I've never personally written a letter for golf.  Did you send an email or a hand written letter?

One was an email and two were letters. None of them received a response, but it is becoming clear that this is not the norm.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2012, 05:52:51 AM »
Stephen - I wrote a couple of hand written letters to well known US clubs in the past and never received replies. Now fortunately I do not need to take that route. Access is easy once you are on the right side of the fence, just like making $1m a year you just need $50m to start with!
Cave Nil Vino

Mac Plumart

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2012, 08:07:02 AM »
Or $5k and the willingness to work your butt off and a brain to know how to work smart.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2012, 08:08:54 AM »
Another odd staple of this argument is that I have never heard anyone outside this site whine about not being able to play a private course at their leisure.   The two courses I have wanted to play and couldn't are both public. I couldn't pull the trigger on paying $500 when I knew many on this site had played both for free through rater access. Jealousy created an issue that should have never came into play. This thread should have been titled "One of the great failings of jealousy in America".

Jealousy is not limited to America.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Chris DeNigris

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2012, 08:25:49 AM »
I'm still waiting for one person on this site to name a course in America that they want to play and can't. Let's not waist our time whining about Augusta National considering it can be had also through either talent, charity or volunteerism.


John,

Since I am the one who started this thread I will happily talk about some of the courses I have always assumed I would never get the opportunity to enjoy. You have the usual characters that are considered by many to be some of the greatest courses the world has to offer, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Seminole, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, etc. There are also quite a few around the areas I have lives and that I have looked on longingly such as Riveria, LACC, Bel Air CC, Waverly CC, Castle Pines and others like that. These are some courses that I have always assumed were off limits.

Also, could you clarify what you were talking about I'm regards to Augusta.

I played 3 of those by writing letters. Stephen, have you ever written a letter to a golf club expressing an interest in playing? I think you'd be surprised at the results.


Yeah, but you wrote your letters with an Irish accent. American clubs are suckers for that.  ;)

Paul Gray

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2012, 08:53:55 PM »
You have all of a commodity and you know a stranger would like just a tiny portion of it. Do you a) for a fee, allow him to enjoy just a little of what you have or b) selfishly retain all of it on the grounds that doing so makes you feel superior? In short, do you believe in some small level of egality or are you just a complete arsehole?

Once upon a time in Britain many clubs could only be accessed by the aristocracy but times have, to a greater or lesser extent, changed. I, and I suspect many far more esteemed contributors from these shores, would never have played the game if the status quo had remained unchanged. Don't get me wrong, I do my bit as a course marshall over here and frequently discriminate against people. But I do it based solely on their golfing etiquette, not their privilege or lack thereof.

As for courses such as ANGC being over run, if TOC can manage I suspect anywhere could. Of course there would be an initial stampede which would have to be restricted severely but this would eventually pass. The Muirfield example surely represents all that is equitable and sustainable.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mac Plumart

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2012, 09:18:12 PM »
Paul...

You say, if TOC can manage...any one can.  Tell us about your experiences playing The Old Course.  Pre-booked tee time, lottery, some other way of lining up your rounds?  What did you think regarding pace of play?  Did you find your rounds peaceful, rushed, ideal or not ideal?   If not ideal, what would you change...why?

Regarding Muirfield, you mention their way is equitable and sustainable.  Tell us about your experiences at Muirfield and compare and contrast that to The Old Course. 


Regarding your home club...would you change anything and/or add any things you observed at The Old Course or Muirfield?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jud_T

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2012, 09:32:16 PM »
It's pretty simple.  Clubs that are in high rent districts charge high fees.  Guys who are paying 10-20k a year and 50-100k down want pristine conditions, no tee times and the ability to play in 3 hours if they so desire, including on a Tuesday morning, and for those prices I don't blame them.  It's called a free market.  My only problem is when access is restricted by sex, race or religion.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ronald Montesano

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2012, 09:16:44 AM »
Prologue: I'm a private school teacher and golf coach (we don't make much money) who loves golf for the golf. As a high school player, I played a few nine-hole rounds on local privates and recognized a difference in upkeep, not in architectural significance. Why not? Because not everyone in the world thinks of architectural significance off the starting line. Why is that a great building? Because it's tall. Why is that girl hot? Because she has big ... ideas.

Chapter One: As a golf coach, we coach during match and practice rounds. This time spent not golfing afforded me a chance to observe the golf courses and the workers, while the lads were competing. I also rode many a course with my opposing coach and we often discussed the appropriate way to play a hole, or why this feature was important, or what was missing. Not golfing is a great way to appreciate and learn about a course.

Chapter Two: I signed on as yearbook adviser to make more money. Not big money, mind you, but enough to pay a few more bills. I learned that our students are spread thin and don't have the time to do every task required of the yearbook. I began to shoot images for the book and learned that I could transfer that skill to golf course photography. I also learned that I could shoot 500 images during a round and still play 75-85 golf nearly anywhere. Then, tragedy struck...

Chapter Three: I joined Golf Club Atlas. I learned of courses named by acronym and not by actual words. I was informed of private haunts where golf was not the most important (nor even in the top four) element to the club. These were restricted-access properties where the kind of money and relevance needed to join were not available to me. I started (this may have preceded my election to the GCA Discussion Group) a golfing website and began to visit tournaments and courses as a member of the press corps. I gave to the courses/tournaments and they gave to me in return. I saw more courses and recognized their worth.

Chapter Four: I suspect that I am 180 degrees opposite where I was 5 to 8 years ago. In those days, I had a sense of entitlement (not restricted to any socio-economic class) that indicated that I should have access to any golf course in the world. Hell, I might as well have wished for access to any supermodel babe in the world for one night of glory. That's not how the world of humans works.

Chapter Five: Where now? Auctions (I now have well-heeled backers who pay the majority of the lots for private-club access that we win); oblation of guys on this site with whom I actually exchange PMs, meet up with at a common ground (public course like Leatherstocking) and establish as true a relationship as can be developed in so brief a period; the occasional lottery strike, where an associated from one of life's walks contacts me and says "hey, how would you like to play...?" I've also found that, for every USGA event
not called the USGA Open, the legitimate press credential is attainable if you follow the aforementioned Golden Rule.

Epilogue: Opt out of the temptation to whine and feel sorry for yourself. If you had to choose family time over personal acquisition, then your children, nieces, nephews and others are your private clubs. After all, is one play over an acronym worth more than the thousands of smiles and hugs of your relatives? I also reread one day's worth of all the tragedy and loss that occurs throughout the world, the poverty and disease that render concerns like this one both pathetic and offensive. So I don't have access to a cipher...that's the way of the world.

I've not played Merion, but I walked it for two solid days at the 2009 Walker Cup. I watched great golfers from the UK and the USA play wondrous shots across the golf course. I photographed a number of families at the 18th hole Hogan plaque and emailed the images on to them later. I learned that I don't need to consummate every relationship to the fullest to learn and gain from it.

I once played a course near Richmond, VA (a tough get, I'll admit) that emulated every element of the home of the Masters that I could envision. I don't ever need to play the original. I can imagine every great Masters moment as having been executed there. I suspect that, for every acronym, there is an accessible course that will offer at least a taste of the original. In this life, a taste is enough for me.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Paul Gray

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2012, 09:41:37 AM »
Mac,

Your points re TOC (I assume you're pointing out that many frustrations can and do arise) are duly noted. Please feel free to exile yourself in the interests of the greater good. Less access would certainly speed rounds up for the select band of wealthy locals that could afford millionaires' golf. I jest. No offence intended I assure you.

Confession time: I've never been to Muirfield and based my comments re Muirfield on information generally available rather than, I must admit, first hand experience. I can however comment on the fact that, as a golfer in the south of England, places such as Sunningdale, The Berkshire, Royal St. George's, Royal Cinque Ports (the list could go on and on) sensibly, in my opinion, balance the needs of the membership with overall consideration for fellow golfers. All of these courses discriminate, but only by way of requiring a golfer to, in principle at least, produce a handicap certificate to confirm their ability to play the course without inconveniencing others. The result of this selective openness is, in my experience, beneficial to all parties. I recently played at Liphook with a friend and was approached by a member in the bar afterwards, a complete stranger to us, who was genuinely happy to have us experience his course and to listen to our positive feedback. Having grown up just thirty miles from the course but, shamefully, never having visited, that one members' attitude cemented my already positive feelings and ensured the club will continue to receive a small slice of my money for years to come. Then again, having never been to a course thirty miles down the road, let alone crossed the Atlantic to play golf, perhaps I should be excluded from such a place. Come to think of it, Mac, perhaps such courses should only admit foreign visitors that are able to pay in 'golf miles' with supporting documentation required from at least twenty renowned U.S course before being allowed to board a plane for these shores. I assume you'd be in favour of a reciprocal agreement at Seminole, thus keeping out anyone that apparently hadn't made enough effort. Such people would more than likely have lame everyman excuses such as sacrificing their golf in order to cover a child's university fees or such like.

Regarding my club, the club isn't even slightly selective in that handicap is not a prerequisite to playing. The net outcome is far from perfect. An excessively busy golf course and limited knowledge of etiquette leads to tensions between the membership and visitors. Last month I had to insist a visitor find some trousers. He was quite upset that his jeans were not deemed acceptable! As the course is part of a chain that relates solely to profit, the company continually walks a fine line between maximising profits from visitors and keeping current members from walking out. Hopefully, after a seventeen year absence because of my living elsewhere, I'll be able to rejoin my beloved Hayling before too long, which operates a visitors policy akin to that of the aforementioned sand belt and links courses but, until then, in response to your question, what would I change where I currently am? Well, the following:

1) Apply handicap certification requirements. This for me is the one fundamentally essential requirement for play. With this criteria satisfied you can be reasonably happy that you haven't just let a problem loose on the course. If you're not yet of a standard to play to a given handicap then a public course will suit you just fine and you will have something to aspire to that isn't dependant principally on socioeconomic status. Of course you have to be able to meet the green fee but, subject to that, your access is governed primarily by what you know, rather than who.

2) Ensure all new members are taken out by a trusted member and/or committee member and educated in the ways of golf course etiquette. We all have a responsibility to uphold the spirit of the game and so forth and a hefty wallet is not a veto to such responsibilities.

3) The economic model followed at my club marginalises those that are less financially beneficial in the short term, i.e. junior club members. Once I reached a certain standard as a kid, like all my golfing friends, there were no restrictions in place on our using the course as we so wished and playing in club competitions. I firmly believe a policy of inclusiveness is both beneficial for intergenerational relations and the future well being of the game.

And that really is about it. Nothing complicated or bureaucratically time consuming.

Ultimately, this is of course just conjecture. I firmly belief in the benefits of an open policy towards visitors but equally believe clubs should be free to run themselves as they see fit, save for racial or gender discrimination. I will always defend golf courses from unnecessary interference, but remain free to disagree with the policies some adopt.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 10:52:59 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mac Plumart

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2012, 09:53:47 AM »
I... believe clubs should be free to run themselves as they see fit

Paul...I'm glad we agree on this.




Stan (RoMo)...great post.  I love this part, especially,

I gave to the courses/tournaments and they gave to me in return

I've found this to be very true in golf.  It ain't about money...it is about love and passion.  If you've got those things and give to the game with those gifts, everything else is simply a matter of time.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 10:02:14 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Paul Gray

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »
Further to my previous post, a story from my childhood comes to mind:

When I was about fourteen and played a fair few local junior events a tiny young lad of no more than eleven years old appeared on the seen. I was paired up with him once and clearly the lad showed some promise. He was able to play and learn the game at his local club, one of Hampshire's finest where a talented kid would have his abilities well tested, because it was open to all. At the time, based upon my own experience at a club not too far away, his total annual subs were probably in the region of £50. Yes, £50. A couple of months ago he drained a monster putt on the penultimate hole to shift momentum the way of his team. From there on they only ever looked like winning and the rest is history. His name was Justin Rose.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 05:45:25 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Johnson

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #94 on: November 25, 2012, 05:51:27 PM »
One important point is being ignored here. 

In the us, it can be difficult to get a tee time at a top course AS A MEMBER. 

I can name at least 8 top 75 courses where members struggle to get on, let alone a prime time.   Our courses generally have too many members and they all want to play.

At my course, we if you want a weekend morning tee time, you pretty much have a 15 minute window to get it before the sheet fills up.   

We would love to have more guest play but why should we open up more times when members can struggle to get on.   Many of these. Top courses are on 2 or 3 course clubs.  At these places getting a tee time on the famous course is even worse.



Mac Plumart

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2012, 05:57:54 PM »
Paul...

I think that is great, but it is not my right to demand private enterprises do what I want them to do...assuming I am not a member, owner, or manager of said private enterprise.


I think juniors should play for free, as they are the future of the game.  Due to my belief regarding the importance of juniors to the game of golf, I am heavily involved with The First Tee of Atlanta.  Furthermore, I am involved with the East Lake Foundation because of its core belief, help of kids, enhancement of golf, and neighborhood revitalization and its impact on people's lives.  But this is my belief and I take steps to act on my beliefs.  In a free society, I don't demand others follow my beliefs or passions.  In fact, they are free to do what they please, as long as they stay within the law.


One of my greatest surprises has been seeing the kid's drive, desire, and motivation when they get hope and become aware of all the opportunities free societies offer them.  These opportunities and how people/kids perk up and perform when they become aware of them is one of the ideals behind freedom, choice, and competition.  This is a big reason way I despise socialism and the entitlement mentality sweeping across the world.  And many of the posts on this thread seem to be centered on unearned entitlement, like I deserve to play any course I want.  I'm against that mentality.

Again, in regards to your post...I think juniors are the key to our game's future.  I think they should be developed and fostered.  This is why I give so much of myself to supporting those efforts.  But I believe it is wrong to demand others do that in a free society.  No one should be forced to do anything they don't want to just like no one is entitled to anything except what they've earned.

With that, I'm dropping off this thread...as I've stated my views.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 06:02:28 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Paul Gray

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2012, 07:25:31 PM »
Mac,

Credit to you for the work you do with the kids. I'm all in favour of this and couldn't agree wit you more about the motivational strength derived from giving people opportunities to shine.  

As we've already agreed upon, clubs should of course be allowed to do as they wish in any free society. I'm no socialist and have many problems with the entitlement culture demonstrated by a minority here in Britain. However, I am a meritocrat and I'm firmly of the opinion that neither you nor I live in a meritocratic society.

I wish you all the best Mac and, since you've stated you're bowing out of this discussion, sincerely hope I haven't caused offence in any way. I'm more than happy with a frank exchange of views, but I'm not here to intentionally upset anyone.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 10:59:17 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #97 on: November 26, 2012, 11:49:21 AM »
Mark,

Your point is well made and one which I can certainly relate to. At my club I believe membership has now exceeded 1000 and, when you add in the number of visitors wishing to play, I'm sure you can understand the tensions I referred to earlier. In an ideal world I'd love to see it owned and run by the membership but that simply isn't going to happen. Don't get me wrong, I have no complaints about the company that own the course seeking maximum profit. They are not in it for the love of the game and that's fair enough, but there will always be problems therein.

Having said the above, my course is something of an exception in that it's not only a half decent track but it's located in a very convenient catchment area. More generally over here, in the current economic climate, courses are dropping both their membership fees and their visitor fees in an attempt to stimulate demand. This is fundamentally the current position because market forces in the 80's and 90's saw courses appearing all over the place. Nine (possibly eight) out of ten of them are rubbish but their existence means the market place is a healthily competitive one and, whilst most of them are places I have no desire to visit, they do attract people and therefore counter the potentially excessive demand at many of the places I do want to play. This raised a couple of questions in my tiny mind and I wondered if you had any thoughts:

1) Costs for playing in the U.S are seemingly high and yet demand still outstrips supply. Is real estate that expense that no one can create more affordable courses? Or, thinking about it, is it that building and maintenance costs of 'plastic fantastic' courses are so high that cheap golf simply isn't economically viable?

2) Many sports clubs around the world have developed organically when enough people have shared a common recreational goal. Where are all the collectively owned, not-for-profit clubs in the US?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 11:55:42 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Johnson

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #98 on: November 26, 2012, 12:07:45 PM »

1) Costs for playing in the U.S are seemingly high and yet demand still outstrips supply. Is real estate that expense that no one can create more affordable courses? Or, thinking about it, is it that building and maintenance costs of 'plastic fantastic' courses are so high that cheap golf simply isn't economically viable?

2) Many sports clubs around the world have developed organically when enough people have shared a common recreational goal. Where are all the collectively owned, not-for-profit clubs in the US?

1)  in major metro metropolitan areas, yes real estate is quite expensive.   If you look at most of the courses, people complain about not being able to get on most are located in or near a major metropolitan area.   Over the past few years, very few new courses have been built and that trend will likely continue.   Also most cities have high politicized zoning laws which would make it difficult or impossible to get land zoned for a private enterprise.

2) the closest thing we have to those is municipal courses which are run or managed by a city or county.  (Bethpage is the best example of this).    Many of these were built to offer affordable golf, which is why it is very difficult to get a tee time.   Unfortunately, despite their popularity, they are often used to subsidize other recreational activities within the town so maintainence practices are sparse which drives conditions which many here would find unplayable.



Jud_T

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Re: One of the great failings of golf in America
« Reply #99 on: November 26, 2012, 12:10:07 PM »

1) Costs for playing in the U.S are seemingly high and yet demand still outstrips supply. Is real estate that expense that no one can create more affordable courses? Or, thinking about it, is it that building and maintenance costs of 'plastic fantastic' courses are so high that cheap golf simply isn't economically viable?


Paul,

There are a bunch of different markets in the U.S.  Demand certainly does not outstrip supply nationally as I believe more courses are closing than opening and prices are coming down in general.  Even in the high rent districts near major cities wait lists are a thing of the past at all but the most exclusive clubs and initiations are down at almost all clubs.  There simply isn't any real estate available within close proximity to NY, Chicago and LA and if there is it still ain't cheap.  However something like 95% of the country is undeveloped and there's plenty of great land available but the mixed experience of national clubs has put a damper on that market as well.  As in housing you can buy up existing golf courses currently a lot cheaper than you can build new.  $100 a round might seem cheap or very reasonable in one part of the country and exhorbitantly expensive in another.  It's a big country...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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