[Matthew Essig]

But for the 90%+ of golfers who don't have connections, they will never get the chance to play any of the private courses.

Why is this a problem?

What percentage of that 90% of golfers have even heard of Seminole? Have taken the time to go to Pinehurst, Bandon Dunes, and St. Andrews?  I'll suggest not many. And if they did, they just might end up with some of the connections required to play these private courses you guys assume they want to play.

Most people are not as stupid as many of the people on this site make them sound like.

Life is hard. Money is tight for so many people. If you have a dish for collecting change, you are in the top 8% (heard this stat when someone was talking about thanksgiving today). I guarantee that if you asked an average golfer, "Want to play Augusta National?" 95%+ would say "Yes,"  but would probably stop and think about if they could afford the guest fee and travel fee, with final result being "But, I can't."

[Jud_T]

Stephen,

We have a little thing called reciprocal play.  I have been welcomed more often than not to any number of courses and only turned away from a few in high season, which is perfectly understandable.  

[Mike Sweeney]

For someone who has connections through this site, its easy to play anywhere you want. But for the 90%+ of golfers who don't have connections, they will never get the chance to play any of the private courses.

Matthew,

Google Alerts will get you on 90+% of the courses in America. Here is Fishers Island:

http://hartford.easterseals.com/site/PageServer?pagename=CTHA_copy_of_FishersIsland

Maidstone - http://www.annliguori.com/charitygolfevent.php

Friars Head - http://www.mentoring.org/program_resources/training_and_events/champions_golf_challenge/

or for $27, here is a list:

http://www.golfvacationinsider.com/top100

[Matthew Essig]

For someone who has connections through this site, its easy to play anywhere you want. But for the 90%+ of golfers who don't have connections, they will never get the chance to play any of the private courses.

Matthew,

Google Alerts will get you on 90+% of the courses in America. Here is Fishers Island:

http://hartford.easterseals.com/site/PageServer?pagename=CTHA_copy_of_FishersIsland

Maidstone - http://www.annliguori.com/charitygolfevent.php

Friars Head - http://www.mentoring.org/program_resources/training_and_events/champions_golf_challenge/

or for $27, here is a list:

http://www.golfvacationinsider.com/top100

The miracle of technology!!!! 

[Sean_A]

I continue to read with great interest the  attitude of some (perhaps most) from GB, it kind of reminds me why many of our forebears picked up and sailed across the ocean and eventually broke from GB and formed their own nation!
  I have known a good many from GB and some of the other nations of the Western European continent. It occurred to me long ago that their constant criticisms of some of the things we do in America and as Americans is actually a guise and cloak for the fact that they are actually envious of us and the things we have done and been able to do that they have not and/or perhaps cannot.
 The other aspect of this remark above is that essentially almost all of our private clubs in America are on private property and in many cases the oldest and most significant clubs abroad are so often on what is known as "common ground."
 On the other hand, it probably is quite ironic, that what some refer to as the home of democracy does have perhaps an inordinate amount of private and highly exclusive clubs.
My question to  the clubs in GB (particularly Scotland, Ireland and England)is do they have a tax structure upon them (like US private clubs) that to maintain their legal "privacy" status the club cannot generate much in excess of something like 15% of their gross income from outside (non-member related) revenue?
Cheers
 

Mike

What you forget is that 15% of a large number is a large number.  The tax deal isn't an issue because clubs would tightly control (as they do now) visitors.  I don't think anybody is asking clubs to lose their tax status. 

Very few of the famous courses in GB&I are on common land and that has nothing to do with allowing visitors or not.  GB&I clubs allow visitors because its traditional to do so and it keeps dues down to an affordable level - thus creating a much bigger market for potential members.  Very few clubs are interested in pricing potential members out of the market. 

One person commented that for a large percentage potential visitors the cost of a green fee and travel expenses are enough to put most potential golfers off traipsing round the county on JakaB's dime. 

Look, the original comment was about golfers not being able to experience the shrines of the game because of access issues.  Visitor fees too are an issue and some of the shrines in GB&I are about as guilty on this account as clubs in the States. I would be amazed if many guys on this site think the current situation is good for golfers in general.  Many on this site are very privileged.  That is life, but lets not confuse cold facts with an ideal situation.  It is what it is. 

Ciao

[Ross Tuddenham]

For those that are members of clubs where the joining fee/subs would be prohibitive for those on average to lower incomes do you feel the club is missing something by being so financially exclusive?  What I mean is that you only get the chance to play with others of a similar wealth and therefore a narrow group from the socioeconomic spectrum.

On a practical level do you find joining a more exclusive club separates you from your other golfing friends? Even in the UK I have heard from people who have not been able to join the same club as a group of friends because for whatever reason they cant spend as much on golf membership as their friends.

[David Davis]

Stephen, thanks for posting this thread, it's interesting to read the responses, especially with your "Thanksgiving" timing, which having met you I'm going to guess is pure coincidence :-)

I imagine it really all boils down to how you look at it. Being an American living overseas I often gaze across the pond and wonder what if it were indeed possible to play all but a few courses based on limited greenfee availabilities. What would the result be. Let's say for instance like a Muirfield does. Something like Tuesday and Thursday mornings when the course is normally empty. (not certain about these days anymore but I played on a Tuesday I believe).

Would the courses be overrun if they put the greenfee at a level like Muirfield has done. 225 GBP or something for a round of golf in the UK is quite high. It's every bit as high as Pebble's 495 USD (to US standards). So let's say some of these courses said, sure for 750 USD (or whatever number) we will allow limited visitors a couple days a week/month. Would they be full? Perhaps but it would certainly stop all but the people with a strong desire or those to which money is no object I suppose. Perhaps that still wouldn't solve your problem.

I believe that all the private clubs no matter where they are have the right to do whatever the heck they want. The members mostly own these clubs and pay for access, flexibility, tranquility, luxury etc. Yet I think like you I also in my heart suffer a little as I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to experience these wonderful places and appreciate what these architects have done for our great game. I also can't admit to wishing they were open to everyone no more than I can wish that at my own club. It wouldn't really be private any longer I suppose, we wouldn't be able to get tee times which can even be difficult as it is on occasion.

I'm fortunate to have been invited to join an amazing private club and I'm grateful for this every minute, (even yesterday during our course committee meeting where we spent 5 hours discussing strong opposition from nature organizations to every single breath we take). I can't help but to have a strong desire to share my club with people very passionate about the game but perhaps I can also hide behind the fact I live in such a remote location and realize that it takes quite an effort to come here and really only those most passionate about golf (or sex, drugs and Amsterdam I suppose) are willing to make the trip. Fact, is somewhere we have to draw the line, even the most gracious of us.

The more I think about it the more I'm grateful golf is the way it is in the US. I love the fact that there are places that are exclusive and mystical that give us something to dream about. Doesn't that honestly add to the sheer enjoyment of seeing them when you do receive that unique opportunity?

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I always miss the US on this my favorite holiday of the year. In trying to make up for it, I'm celebrating tonight by inviting 25 members of my golf club and a couple friends to a traditional Thanksgiving Dinner. For good order I'm celebrating on Saturday as well with a group of American friends, I think because I miss eating leftover turkey sandwiches for the next couple weeks.

I hope all of you Americans enjoy yours and cherish all those things you are grateful for.

[Jud_T]

The fact is that the silver lining of today's economy is that all but a small handful of clubs are accessible to many.  Anybody who belongs to most any club, and I don't just mean the expensive ones, can arrange a game at most any other club at times that are off-peak.  For Joe Six-Pack the private club scene appears daunting but for anyone who's had even a small taste inside the ropes it's far from true.  No I can't have my pro call Augusta National and arrange a game, but I ain't losing any sleep over it.  Frankly the U.K. model makes a lot of sense from a variety of perspectives and economic reality is leading many clubs on this side of the pond to move in that general direction, both in terms of costs and revenues;  If not overtly, then covertly...

[Paul_Turner]

I think the UK, Ireland, Euro model is better but it's not all that hard to play many of the great courses in the US.  In my 13 years over here I've played many of the best (Pine Valley, Cypress...) through generous hosts.  

Private golf membership is expensive here in the NY metro area.  I wonder if a club could, if they wanted to, streamline the costs i.e. less pristine maintenance,  not so many flower beds, swimming pools, fancy food and service.  Just concentrate on the flog.

Also I think many of the UK clubs were truly private back in the 1920s? But it didn't last long.

PS
Can you imagine the mystique The Old Course would have if it was as exclusive at ANGC?

[Stephen Davis]

Thank you to everyone who has taken time to respond to this thread. There have been many great posts representing all sides of the issue. To David, you are correct that my timing with Thanksgiving was purely coincidental. It actually hadn't even crossed my mind until someone brought it up on here. This has been a great learning thread for me, so thank you all for helping me see this issue from theany perspectives held by you all.

[Mark Chaplin]

David Davis, JK and Tom Kelly - visit Muirfield with a member and you'll pay £10 for the day. Last time I was at Merion I think it was $220 for an accompanied guest.

Mike Young - I'm sure any club could get their accountant to avoid the tax issues if they so desired. It's a good smoke screen though.

Further we may have our faults but I play at a top GB club with champions of business, top surgeons, firemen, police officers, local tradespeople, multi millionaires and people (including myself) with no money. The diversity of our memberships are a joy and a marvellous opportunity to meet interesting people from every walk of life rather than clones of oneself.

[C. Squier]

David Davis, JK and Tom Kelly - visit Muirfield with a member and you'll pay £10 for the day. Last time I was at Merion I think it was $220 for an accompanied guest.

Mike Young - I'm sure any club could get their accountant to avoid the tax issues if they so desired. It's a good smoke screen though.

Further we may have our faults but I play at a top GB club with champions of business, top surgeons, firemen, police officers, local tradespeople, multi millionaires and people (including myself) with no money. The diversity of our memberships are a joy and a marvellous opportunity to meet interesting people from every walk of life rather than clones of oneself.

The UK is the center of the universe when it comes to division of social classes. Lets not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to the haves and the have nots.

[Mark Pearce]

I really don't know what you people want.  In the U.S. any of us can play most any course for a fee less than it costs our host on a per round basis.  In the U.K. any of us can play most any course for a fee far higher that what it costs a local member on a per round basis.  Be careful what you ask for.

John:  Good point that last one!

Actually, it's not.  Now I expect JK to get it wrong.  It's what he does.  However, you have played plenty of golf in the UK and should fully understand that members' guests pay very low green fees.  As Mark Chaplin states, a member's guest at Muirfield might pay £10.  Visitors (that is, unhosted, unconnected golfers) pay higher green fees, which are, it is true, higher than the cost per round a member pays.  Which brings me to the second point.  Visitor fees may be higher than the members average cost per round but that is because the average cost per round is typically much lower than in the States.  Visitor green fees at UK private clubs are of the same order of magnitude as member's guests fees in the US. not

[Mark Pearce]

The other aspect of this remark above is that essentially almost all of our private clubs in America are on private property and in many cases the oldest and most significant clubs abroad are so often on what is known as "common ground."
 

Nonsense.  TOC and Carnoustie are public courses.  Turnberry is a resort.  I believe that each of the remaining Open Rota courses and the vast majority of other leading UK courses are  on private land.  I cannot think of a "significant" private club with exclusive access to a course (in that it controls who can play the course) that is on common ground other than Huntercombe and that only qualifies as significant in these circles.

[Mark Pearce]

The UK is the center of the universe when it comes to division of social classes. Lets not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to the haves and the have nots.

That certainly was true.  I really am not sure it remains the case.  This isn't a dig at the US but, divided by class as we may be, I do think there's a case to be made that the US has become more divided by class.  Whether that is a good case I don't know, what is for sure is that neither country is in a position to claim the high ground on this question.

[Mike_Young]

Mark,
If you really wish to see class division look no further than Latin America.  If you read our papers you may think there is more class division than is actually here but in Latin America is is class division as well as a very macho based operating system.  And it is so inbred that it could take generations to overcome it.  As confused as we may be here I would still claim the high ground.

And as for our failings in golf in America, I still disagree.  I relate to residential architecture.  For example, drive Worth Ave in Palm Beach, should we be entitled to go into these by paying a fee?  No.  JMO.

[Rich Goodale]

The other aspect of this remark above is that essentially almost all of our private clubs in America are on private property and in many cases the oldest and most significant clubs abroad are so often on what is known as "common ground."
 

Nonsense.  TOC and Carnoustie are public courses.  Turnberry is a resort.  I believe that each of the remaining Open Rota courses and the vast majority of other leading UK courses are  on private land.  I cannot think of a "significant" private club with exclusive access to a course (in that it controls who can play the course) that is on common ground other than Huntercombe and that only qualifies as significant in these circles.

Mark

Most of Royal Dornoch is on "Common Good Land" which means it is owned by the local council.

Et. Al.  Getting back to David's proposition, I believe that it is true.  The ironies are that while the British are mostly extraordinarily bound and confounded by issues of class, when it comes to golf they are as egalitarian as any race I have yet encountered whilst golfing my ball, and, on the other hand, although we Americans are mostly extraordinarily classless, when we walk through the gates of our golf courses (or don't walk through, as the case might be) we very often turn into the vilest class of vermins of snobbery that exists on this planet.

Rich

[Mike Sweeney]

when we walk through the gates of our golf courses (or don't walk through, as the case might be) we very often turn into the vilest class of vermins of snobbery that exists on this planet.

Rich

I do think this is a case to case thing. While it may be difficult to get through those gates in Pine Valley, New Jersey, I found it to be one of the most egalitarian places on earth. From the members to the staff, caddies and guest, everyone seems on equal footing when you are inside there. Sand Hills too.

[Rich Goodale]

when we walk through the gates of our golf courses (or don't walk through, as the case might be) we very often turn into the vilest class of vermins of snobbery that exists on this planet.

Rich

I do think this is a case to case thing.

Agreed, Mike.  I did qualify my statement with the words "very often" and stand by the statement as written.

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,
If you really wish to see class division look no further than Latin America.  If you read our papers you may think there is more class division than is actually here but in Latin America is is class division as well as a very macho based operating system.  And it is so inbred that it could take generations to overcome it.  As confused as we may be here I would still claim the high ground.

And as for our failings in golf in America, I still disagree.  I relate to residential architecture.  For example, drive Worth Ave in Palm Beach, should we be entitled to go into these by paying a fee?  No.  JMO.

Mike,

I'm sure Latin America isn't alone, I suspect India, for instance, still makes both the UK and USA appear egalitarian.  I was simply responding to Clint's assertion that the UK was the "centre of the Universe" and it sounds like you agree with me that he's wrong.  

As to failings in golf in America, I haven't really commented on those here, merely correcting JK's nonsense and Tom Doak's endorsement of it.  It is entirely up to the owners of private land who they allow on.  I don't see anyone here arguing that private clubs should be forced to allow non-members access.  My view, and that of others, is that a model like HCEG, where visitors can play without introduction at certain times, for a fee, is preferable both for the club and the golfing public.  I agree, however, that it should not be forced on any club.

[Mike Sweeney]

when we walk through the gates of our golf courses (or don't walk through, as the case might be) we very often turn into the vilest class of vermins of snobbery that exists on this planet.

Rich

I do think this is a case to case thing.

Agreed, Mike.  I did qualify my statement with the words "very often" and stand by the statement as written.

Rich

Many times it seems worse at local private clubs without much historical or architectural pedigree. Thus, compensation for other things.

I played this summer with a "member" of public Pound Ridge GC, and it seemed like the guy was doing me a favor to play with me. For $180 or so that I payed, I can lose less balls at Yale and be ignored by my wife at home for free !!

[Mike_Young]

Mark,
If you really wish to see class division look no further than Latin America.  If you read our papers you may think there is more class division than is actually here but in Latin America is is class division as well as a very macho based operating system.  And it is so inbred that it could take generations to overcome it.  As confused as we may be here I would still claim the high ground.

And as for our failings in golf in America, I still disagree.  I relate to residential architecture.  For example, drive Worth Ave in Palm Beach, should we be entitled to go into these by paying a fee?  No.  JMO.

Mike,

I'm sure Latin America isn't alone, I suspect India, for instance, still makes both the UK and USA appear egalitarian.  I was simply responding to Clint's assertion that the UK was the "centre of the Universe" and it sounds like you agree with me that he's wrong.  

As to failings in golf in America, I haven't really commented on those here, merely correcting JK's nonsense and Tom Doak's endorsement of it.  It is entirely up to the owners of private land who they allow on.  I don't see anyone here arguing that private clubs should be forced to allow non-members access.  My view, and that of others, is that a model like HCEG, where visitors can play without introduction at certain times, for a fee, is preferable both for the club and the golfing public.  I agree, however, that it should not be forced on any club.

Sorry Mark.  I did not mean for my second paragraph to be directed at you.
Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm still waiting for one person on this site to name a course in America that they want to play and can't. Let's not waist our time whining about Augusta National considering it can be had also through either talent, charity or volunteerism.

[Mac Plumart]

I'm still waiting for one person on this site to name a course in America that they want to play and can't.

Longshadow! 

When is that gem reopening?!?!

[Mike_Young]

Mac,    hmmmm.....stay tuned....

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