[John Kavanaugh]

Is it fair to say that Augusta National sees more guest rounds than member rounds in any given year?  I'm just not sure how many times a year four members get together for a game.

This notion that just because you are a member of a private course you can show up at the first tee and play anytime you like is another fantasy. 

I really don't know what you people want.  In the U.S. any of us can play most any course for a fee less than it costs our host on a per round basis.  In the U.K. any of us can play most any course for a fee far higher that what it costs a local member on a per round basis.  Be careful what you ask for.

[Tom_Doak]

Is it fair to say that Augusta National sees more guest rounds than member rounds in any given year?  I'm just not sure how many times a year four members get together for a game.

This notion that just because you are a member of a private course you can show up at the first tee and play anytime you like is another fantasy. 

I really don't know what you people want.  In the U.S. any of us can play most any course for a fee less than it costs our host on a per round basis.  In the U.K. any of us can play most any course for a fee far higher that what it costs a local member on a per round basis.  Be careful what you ask for.

John:  Good point that last one!

Regarding Augusta, though, I am told that one of the best features of the club for members is that they have several "members' weekends" each year where the members come out by themselves and get to know each other, which is a REALLY good feature for the lesser-known CEO's among them.

[Tom_Doak]

It seems to me that the golden rule is common to most all religions and therefore most cultures of the world. The exclusive private club seems to me to be a violation of the golden rule. I agree with Stephen.

GJ:  The Golden Rule most often quoted in America recently is a bit different than the one you're thinking of.  Patrick Mucci seems to quote it the most frequently here on GCA if you need a hint.

[Tom Kelly]

I really don't know what you people want.  In the U.S. any of us can play most any course for a fee less than it costs our host on a per round basis.  In the U.K. any of us can play most any course for a fee far higher that what it costs a local member on a per round basis.  Be careful what you ask for.

This is why I really don't understand how the American membership system continues to work.

You missed one point though, if you have a host in the UK it is likely to cost you a similar amount to what the local member pays on a per round basis. Only a visitor without a host will pay significantly higher as they should do imo.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I though rich white guys were the devil and the root of all that's bad in the country. What makes anyone think the masses want to hang out with them?

[John Kavanaugh]

I though rich white guys were the devil and the root of all that's bad in the country. What makes anyone think the masses want to hang out with them?

That is exactly why the guys on this thread want unaccompanied access.

[Tim_Weiman]

Stephen,

I agree with Ian Andrew and Tom Doak: if you really want to visit and see the great (and private ) courses in America, you can almost always do. Sincerity and common courtesy goes a long way as Ian and Tom suggest.

A measure of sincerity is whether you insist on playing or, by contrast, make clear you want to visit to study the architecture and don't care about  playing.

The first time I ever visited Crystal Downs was perhaps my most memorable trip to see a classic.

I just drove in and went to the first tee, a great place to take the whole place in. Very quickly a member came up and asked if I wanted to play. I politely declined telling him I was really there to study the course but would appreciate walking along with him if he didn't mind.

No problem, he said just wait until his wife joined him.

Now, to be honest his wife wasn't quite so welcoming. Indeed, she basically suspected I was trespassing and when she asked "what are you doing here?" I knew I was busted and knew I needed a good answer beyond just saying I wanted to see the course.

So, I told her the truth "I am on my way to Shinnecock Hills and just wanted to stop in" - Shinnecock being the final destination in my cross country journey.

Well, this lady knew damn well where Shinnecock was and insisted on asking "where was I coming from?".

So, again. I toldher the truth: "Los Angeles".

That was enough for her husband who wound up not just be very gracious on the golf course, but even invited me for dinner.

Not enough for the woman. She had at least two more questions:

Where was I from?

Where did I go to college?

So, again, the truth. : Greenwich, CT and Princeton. My interrogation was over!

But, from there it was a great experience discussing with the member each hole and how he played them. No pressure to play well. Just a very pleasant time to study the course and see why it was considered a hidden gem (as it was back in the early/mid 90s).

One final point: the comparison of golf courses to works of art only goes so far. One can spend all day at a leading museum and see lots of art. But, to study golf architecture you really have to get around. For instance, the two courses I haven't seen I most want to see are Hirono in Japan and New South Wales near Syndey.

[Tim Pitner]

I hate how these types of threads always turn out.  Someone suggests we might borrow some aspect of the UK model and then they get jumped on for being a socialist or someone on the outside looking in with sour grapes.  No one's suggesting socializing private golf courses or that the members can't do as they please.  But, on some level, it is a shame that some of the great, historic courses in the U.S., which are a national treasures, aren't more generally accessible, even on very limited terms.  Imagine if the UK clubs that are part of every U.S. golfer's itinerary were off limits and they didn't give a damn whether you're a member of Podunk CC in the States.  You'd have to respect that decision but it would be unfortunate.  I don't see anything wrong with exploring ways in which some private courses, particularly ones with historical significance, might make themselves more accessible to limited visitor play. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

One problem the States has is that many historically significant courses are close to major metropolitan areas. So, if you opened them up they would get filled up pretty quickly.

About ten years ago I was talking with a Pine Valley member who was fairly prominent in the world of golf. He told a story about wanting to take a client out as a guest and not being able to get a tee time. Man, I thought, this guy has clout in the golf world, but it meant nothing.

I still believe if you truly want to see one of the great venues you can with a little time, effort, sincerity an flexibility.

[Sven Nilsen]

There does seem to be one rule that still holds true:

"The further you've traveled to get there, the more accommodating the club might be."

Unless, of course, you show up for a Practice Round at ANGC with your clubs.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,

One problem the States has is that many historically significant courses are close to major metropolitan areas. So, if you opened them up they would get filled up pretty quickly.

About ten years ago I was talking with a Pine Valley member who was fairly prominent in the world of golf. He told a story about wanting to take a client out as a guest and not being able to get a tee time. Man, I thought, this guy has clout in the golf world, but it meant nothing.

I still believe if you truly want to see one of the great venues you can with a little time, effort, sincerity an flexibility.

Tim,

What you say is probably true but that doesn't mean there might not be some virtue in these clubs voluntarily opening to visitor play on a limited basis, like an historic home opening for a tour.  No letter or back channels required.  Like I said, I'm not suggesting any club is obligated to do this, just that it would be a nice goodwill gesture and it would be good to share a national/regional treasure.

[Alex Miller]

Regarding Augusta, though, I am told that one of the best features of the club for members is that they have several "members' weekends" each year where the members come out by themselves and get to know each other, which is a REALLY good feature for the lesser-known CEO's among them.

Haha +1!

There's obviously a double-edged sword here. There are countless public, semi-private, and even to a lesser extent exclusive courses and clubs that have been altered negatively thanks to outside play, member influence (the wrong kind), and even just volume of play. These most exclusive clubs by no coincidence are ones that were and have remained architecturally superior (for the most part) and a great deal of that has to do with the separation they've been able to maintain from the average American consumer-golfer.

I say this as a young guy who's not going to be able to join one of the "dream" clubs in all likelihood, but if things work out geographicallly and otherwise would probably pursue someplace I can appreciate architecturally somewhere down the line. I've had the good fortune (especially recently) to play as a guest at some great courses, and I think that if one has a deep enough appreciation and goes about things the right way then there are a far greater number of courses available to them than the "average" golfer.

None of us here are the average golfer. I'd say that the average golfer knows about Pebble Beach and is barely aware of CPC. We are a far different breed. By that same token, there are members among the GCA ranks, generous ones at that and from all sorts of places. I think that many of them truly get enjoyment from sharing their course with someone who can appreciate it to the fullest degree. These members are the docents through these wonderful galleries of architecture and like many museum docents are happy to lead a tour.

So perhaps the US model is different than the UK because it needs to be. The average UK golfer is more like the average GCAer than the average American golfer is. The differece in the systems of private and public golf may be born out of necessity rather than a thurst for socio-economic elitism. So no, I don't think exclusive private clubs are a failing of golf in America, but are probably due to America failing to fully grasp golf. And most importantly, to those people that are kind enough to realize the gift they are giving when they do host someone, a hearty "thank you" is in order because often a foray into these special galleries is an opportunity for education, and society tends to appreciate that a little more than golf (for some reason).

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

I'm curious: what is so bad about bring asked to send a letter?

[C. Squier]

It seems to me that the golden rule is common to most all religions and therefore most cultures of the world. The exclusive private club seems to me to be a violation of the golden rule. I agree with Stephen.

Yeah?  Just how are you able to reciprocate with Augusta, Cypress or Shinny?  The golden rule is about reciprocity, in every language, religion or whatever else you would like to cite.  You don't have to be a member of this site for 2 weeks before someone has thrown out an invite to join them as a complete stranger to a golf course in the country's top 1%.

In my years on this website, I've seen charity auctions, fundraisers, credit card promotions (MasterCard/AMEX) making every club except ANGC, Cypress and Pine Valley available.  Even though you can't just pick up the phone and book a time, it's very possible to play damn near everything you'd ever want with just an ounce of paying attention.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,

I'm curious: what is so bad about bring asked to send a letter?

Tim,

Nothing much, although some people might not think to do so--they may assume such courses are simply off limits.  Referring to the UK again, my understanding is writing a letter to Muirfield, for example, is antiquated.  Now you log on to a website.  If it's good enough for Muirfield .... Why make people jump through hoops?  Again, I'm talking about allowing very limited visitor play.

[Mike_Young]

Stephen,
I don't see the exclusivity of the American private clubs as a failure.  Actually I see it as a catalyst.  The desire for exclusivity and great golf would not have happened if people had not formed private clubs.  And the longevity of many may have gone away if they had been public without boards making decisions.  So IMHO that is not a failure.  Obtaining an invitation to play them is no different than obtaining an invitation to a particular person's home for dinner.  If they wish for you to play then you can play.  BUT they don't wish for everyone to have the right to play. 

Having said the above, TD is correct as to how private clubs are being perceived.  Our children will change the model much more than ourselves.

[Brent Hutto]

I've noticed that member's accompanied guests at many USA private clubs play 3x-5x as much as member's accompanied guests at comparable quality UK private clubs. Maybe since the USA clubs get near zero unaccompanied-guest income they have to make it up by charging more to the accompanied ones.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

I'm curious: what is so bad about bring asked to send a letter?

5 hours of my time golfing with a stranger is worth at a minimum of $1,000. If some schmuck can't take 5 minutes to write a letter he can stay home for all I care. Bring something interesting to the table and members of great clubs from the world over will beat your door down for a game. It is really that simple.

Have you ever noticed how many men marry "up"?  Here is a clue to life.  Take a look at your wife.  If she is a fatty, you lose. Get over it and enjoy your goat ranch cause that is the hand God delt you. So sorry.

[Garland Bayley]

It seems to me that the golden rule is common to most all religions and therefore most cultures of the world. The exclusive private club seems to me to be a violation of the golden rule. I agree with Stephen.

Yeah?  Just how are you able to reciprocate with Augusta, Cypress or Shinny?  The golden rule is about reciprocity, in every language, religion or whatever else you would like to cite.  You don't have to be a member of this site for 2 weeks before someone has thrown out an invite to join them as a complete stranger to a golf course in the country's top 1%.

In my years on this website, I've seen charity auctions, fundraisers, credit card promotions (MasterCard/AMEX) making every club except ANGC, Cypress and Pine Valley available.  Even though you can't just pick up the phone and book a time, it's very possible to play damn near everything you'd ever want with just an ounce of paying attention.

Why don't you write up that reciprocity thing to a peer reviewed theological journal and see how far you get with it.

[C. Squier]

Why don't you write up that reciprocity thing to a peer reviewed theological journal and see how far you get with it.

I will, right after you stop coveting thy neighbor's donkey and his golf club.  Sorry, I didn't pay my initiation fees or write my dues checks to subsidize everyone else who doesn't want to put their big boy pants on and buy a membership for themselves somewhere. 

I've hosted many golfers I've never met, a fair share from unsolicited PM's here on GCA from guys I've never spoken to.  Glad to do it.  But the whining about why you can't just pick up the phone or book a tee time on GolfNow at NGLA or ANGC is just pathetic.  Like I wrote in my previous thread that you choose to ignore (per usual), with just an ounce of work you can play anywhere you want.

[Garland Bayley]

Why don't you write up that reciprocity thing to a peer reviewed theological journal and see how far you get with it.

I will, right after you stop coveting thy neighbor's donkey and his golf club.  Sorry, I didn't pay my initiation fees or write my dues checks to subsidize everyone else who doesn't want to put their big boy pants on and buy a membership for themselves somewhere. 

I've hosted many golfers I've never met, a fair share from unsolicited PM's here on GCA from guys I've never spoken to.  Glad to do it.  But the whining about why you can't just pick up the phone or book a tee time on GolfNow at NGLA or ANGC is just pathetic.  Like I wrote in my previous thread that you choose to ignore (per usual), with just an ounce of work you can play anywhere you want.

Since I'm not coveting my neighbor's donkey and his golf club, I guess they will be expecting your paper real soon at the journal.

[Bradley Anderson]

I've always thought that the artisan concept should be considered in America.

FROM WIKI - Artisan
A class of membership of a golf club with restricted rights at a low cost. Historically, many British golf clubs had small artisan sections, drawn from the working classes. Typically artisan members had limited playing rights, could not enter the clubhouse, had no vote on the management of the club, played in separate competitions from the main membership and had to perform unpaid maintenance of the course. Often an artisan club was a separate organization that had negotiated use of a course with a private members club. Some artisan organizations have survived to this day.

I wonder if the Artisan members have reciprocal playing privileges at other clubs?

It's a concept that may catch on here in America. Some of the biggest expense items for clubs is in all the small contractors services at the clubhouse. Those could be set up on an Artisan arrangement and could save hundreds of thousands a year.

[Mike_Young]

I continue to read with great interest the  attitude of some (perhaps most) from GB, it kind of reminds me why many of our forebears picked up and sailed across the ocean and eventually broke from GB and formed their own nation!
  I have known a good many from GB and some of the other nations of the Western European continent. It occurred to me long ago that their constant criticisms of some of the things we do in America and as Americans is actually a guise and cloak for the fact that they are actually envious of us and the things we have done and been able to do that they have not and/or perhaps cannot.
 The other aspect of this remark above is that essentially almost all of our private clubs in America are on private property and in many cases the oldest and most significant clubs abroad are so often on what is known as "common ground."
 On the other hand, it probably is quite ironic, that what some refer to as the home of democracy does have perhaps an inordinate amount of private and highly exclusive clubs.
My question to  the clubs in GB (particularly Scotland, Ireland and England)is do they have a tax structure upon them (like US private clubs) that to maintain their legal "privacy" status the club cannot generate much in excess of something like 15% of their gross income from outside (non-member related) revenue?
Cheers
 

[Matthew Essig]

Disagree.

Private clubs are built as a benefit to members.  And, therefore, members are their only concern.  Non-members can play all of them as a guest of a member.

Also, the vast majority of golfers don't care about architecture anyway...so they wouldnt/couldnt appreciate the course fully.  In light of this, many who want to play these private clubs are belt-notchers...not architecture enthusiasts.

Thanks for your response Mac. I think the success of Pebble Beach and places like Bandon Dunes would show that, although these golfers may not appreciate architecture the way you and I do, nevertheless, they know a great course when they play one. I have spoken with many people who have told me that the round at XYZ course was the best if their lives. Even though they were not able to articulate the exact things that set these courses apart from a design perspective, they still felt and experienced what the designer wanted them to experience. I don't see how helping more people experience that is a bad thing. Even the private European courses seem to be much more accommodating this way.

+1
Players have a "feeling" when they are playing something good.

Great thread on the day before Thanksgiving considering your audience can access every great course in this country with the exception of a select few.  Please explain to me where you want to play and why you think you can't.

For someone who has connections through this site, its easy to play anywhere you want. But for the 90%+ of golfers who don't have connections, they will never get the chance to play any of the private courses.

[Mac Plumart]

But for the 90%+ of golfers who don't have connections, they will never get the chance to play any of the private courses.

Why is this a problem?

What percentage of that 90% of golfers have even heard of Seminole? Have taken the time to go to Pinehurst, Bandon Dunes, and St. Andrews?  I'll suggest not many. And if they did, they just might end up with some of the connections required to play these private courses you guys assume they want to play.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41156.0.html

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