[Mac Plumart]

This discussion is a perfect example of why I call this course a must play.  So many differing opinions.  A golfer simply needs to play it for themselves and discover their own opinion.

[A.G._Crockett]

This discussion is a perfect example of why I call this course a must play.  So many differing opinions.  A golfer simply needs to play it for themselves and discover their own opinion.

Mac,
Agreed, and I'll ask you a question.  Can you think of ANY other course that has such widely differing opinions?  I don't know that I can.  As you say, in that respect if in no other TR is a must play.

Plus it is just really, really fun.

[Kyle Harris]

Gents,

Any hole is easy if one can make the prescribed carry and then execute the second shot. Heck, if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon. Analyzing a hole based on perfect execution seems to miss the point. The holes were a precise drive of 245 yards doesn't yield a good result are quite rare.

Please consider the diagonal presented in David's Google Earth aerial by drawing a line from the trees left, through his red dot and then along the far edge of the fairway as one gets right. Are you really going to say that this does not further the omnipresent strategic element to the hole where the risk a catching a tee shot a groove low puts you in the waste area? Consider the lay up right as it pertains to this diagonal - in order to lay up effectively one must weigh the risk of going through the fairway and making enough of a carry while taking on the hazard area front. For the golfer with a modest carry or with a slightly less confident tee shot, this decision should be quite vexing.

[Jud_T]

Aren't Strantz courses in general a bit of a love/hate proposition (the brussels sprouts of GCA)? Is TR simply the highest distillation of this condition?  Taken separately, are the greens particularly interesting?

[Mac Plumart]

Mac,
Can you think of ANY other course that has such widely differing opinions?  I don't know that I can.  As you say, in that respect if in no other TR is a must play.

Agreed 100%.

[Tim Gavrich]

The prospect of playing Tobacco Road excites me more than perhaps any other course I have played before. At the same time, I could never stand to have it be my home course as it's really not very difficult in the sense that decent shots and great shots tend to end up in the same place. But a few times a year...I'd be very cool with that.

[A.G._Crockett]

Aren't Strantz courses in general a bit of a love/hate proposition (the brussels sprouts of GCA)? Is TR simply the highest distillation of this condition?  Taken separately, are the greens particularly interesting?

Jud,
The greens ARE particularly interesting, at TR and all of the Strantz courses.  They are in every shape and size, multileveled, narrow and wide, shallow and deep; you name it.

I don't think ALL Strantz courses are love/hate propositions, though.  It is rare that anybody thinks badly of Caledonia, and I've not read anything negative about Monteray, for instance.  I don't recall huge amounts of controversy about Bulls Bay or Royal New Kent, though I could be wrong about those.  Certainly none of those have the kind of divisions that TR generates.

The three that are very much that way, of course, are TR, True Blue, and Tot Hill.  IMO, there is an explanation for each of those three.  Tot Hill is a difficult site in the very rocky (and ancient) Uwharrie mountains, which most people don't know are there.  In the case of True Blue, Strantz was specifically asked to build a Pine Valley of the South, which he did; a very, very tough golf course resulted.  In the case of TR, I truly believe that Strantz was trying to create a work of art on which golf could be played.  I know that sounds overwrought and overdramatic, but it is just a different golf course from anything else I've ever seen, and I think it is the product of a different thought process by the archie.

[David Stewart]

ThAt the same time, I could never stand to have it be my home course as it's really not very difficult in the sense that decent shots and great shots tend to end up in the same place.

I'm not sure this is entirely true, although highly dependent on pin position. It may be more true for tee shots, but approaches and par 3's I disagree. For example, #3, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16 all have distinct tiers on the greens. Two shots that look nearly identical in the air can land within a yard of each other but end up in completely different spots because of the slopes on those greens.

[Steve_Lovett]

Aren't Strantz courses in general a bit of a love/hate proposition (the brussels sprouts of GCA)? Is TR simply the highest distillation of this condition?  Taken separately, are the greens particularly interesting?

I don't know of anyone who HATES Tobacco Road. I suspect most everyone respects the unique design, even if it's not their cup of tea. Some would prefer not to play that kind of course every day - or more than once - but I think even those who don't care for it are glad they played it.

Re: the greens. They're interesting in that they're wildly different shapes/sizes and many have big, bold contours, but I don't find them "interesting" in the same way as I find Pasatiempo interesting (comparing greens with big bold contours). 

[Brent Hutto]

"A work of art on which golf can be played" is a perfectly apt description of Tobacco Road. Regarding the greens, I'd reckon the greens at TR are spectacular and fun. By contrast I'd rate those at Pasatiempo as spectacularly difficult.

[Jason Thurman]

I'm with Steve. I don't think there's much debate that Tobacco Road is a good and fun course. To me, the real question is "How good is it?"

There's a fair case to be made that it's legitimately great. There's also a fair case to be made that it's just a novelty. A big part of the struggle to answer that question is that so many people only play it once (or once every few years). Not many people live close enough to play it several times a month, and due to its location, it's rare that someone makes a trip to play 3 or 4 days there onsite. The course has a great aesthetic and it's a blast on your first play. The real question is how well it holds up over repeated plays, and it sounds like very few people posting on this topic have logged more than 2 plays there.

For me, it's in my Top 10 above some pretty good courses. But I wonder if it has enough subtlety to be interesting if it were a members' course, or if part of its appeal is that most people leave before they grow weary of the over-the-top features.

[Mac Plumart]

I don't think there's much debate that Tobacco Road is a good and fun course.

There's a fair case to be made that it's legitimately great...



I don't know Jason.  I don't like it...really much at all.  But, as you touch on, I've only played it once.  I'm willing to give it another shot, however.  I think there is a ton of discussion to be had concerning if it is even good and/or fun.  I'm certainly in the camp that there is no way it is great...and this has little to do with the holes, but the routing and walk.

[A.G._Crockett]

In conventional course ranking systems (as explained to me by Tom Huckaby many years ago) TR falls short of great on a couple of counts, notably forced carries and lost golf balls.  Routing is also an issue.  All of these are valid reasons to be critical.

I guess my contention would be that you just can't evaluate TR like other golf courses.  It is something different, sui generis, and has to be dealt with as such.  If that keeps it off the magazine rankings, or creates love/hate feelings, and so on, I understand.  But a lack of strategy, interest, or options?  I don't see that at all.

[Jud_T]

Jason,

For reference my friends who are part-time to full time locals, and +2 to 5 handicaps, think it's a dogtrack and they'd rather do almost anything than play there.  Not my opinion, I've yet to play it, but just saying...

[Mac Plumart]

It is something different, sui generis, and has to be dealt with as such

Again, agreed.  Good points, AG.

[Carl Rogers]

The most number of responses I have ever had to a thread.
TD, I of course, have no clue how financially successful TR has been.

I have played TR twice.  My critique is 3 fold:
- par three's are too similar in length
- 9th green and its approach shot is way too uphill and too small and severe a target
- 13th hole is over the top unplayable and quirky (even within the other worldly universe of TR)

Compare TR with another course in a remote location, at least what I can see on the web site and TV .... that being Cape Kidnapper's.  CK, however remarkable, takes a ton of money and time to get to and play, thus it will never be as well known.

[Steve_Lovett]

The most number of responses I have ever had to a thread.
TD, I of course, have no clue how financially successful TR has been.

I have played TR twice.  My critique is 3 fold:
- par three's are too similar in length
- 9th green and its approach shot is way too uphill and too small and severe a target
- 13th hole is over the top unplayable and quirky (even within the other worldly universe of TR)

Compare TR with another course in a remote location, at least what I can see on the web site and TV .... that being Cape Kidnapper's.  CK, however remarkable, takes a ton of money and time to get to and play, thus it will never be as well known.

I agree about the par-3's and the 9th hole. I don't think #13 is too hard if it's played smartly (230-240 yd drive to a 90-yd wide fairway, followed by a 160 yd layup to an 80-yd wide fairway, followed by a 90 yd wedge blind to a green in a punch-bowl of sorts). It's awkward and a riot of grading, landscape, sand and distraction - but not unplayable.

My 2 top critiques are:
- Awkward routing in holes 2green-to-4tee and 14green-to-18tee
- Lousy 16th hole. Worst on the course IMO

I think Tobacco Road is a very flawed golf course - but one everyone should play at least once - and is a fun, maddening, high-octane golf novelty.

[BHoover]

I just played TR for the first time two weeks ago. I have to admit that my opinion was clouded by my extremely poor play that day I found it hard to appreciate the quirkiness and features of the place because I was struggling to find my swing the whole time. I will reserve judgment until I get a second chance to play TR.

The only flaw I did notice was the non-walkability of the place (but that's not limited to TR).

[David Stewart]

This has probably been discussed on another thread before, but wouldn't 13 be a hell of a lot more fun if they shaved the bowl down to fairway height (or at least rough) so balls could potentially come down from it onto the green? It may be too severe of a slope to mow, but they could at least chop it to a height where you couldn't lose a ball on a shot that was 5 yards off target.

[Jason Thurman]

David, that's what I think too. It's really a cool greensite and hole if you pretend that the area around the green is playable.

I get the idea that the 13th green area used to be cut a little shorter, and that's where this notion that it's a "punchbowl" comes from (or maybe it was just unreasonably long at my visit, and they thin it out at other times of the year).

All I know is that when I played there, a ball that missed the green was lost forever with virtually no chance of it feeding onto the green. On a green that shallow and blind, it was way too severe.

[Kyle Harris]

Just because an area wasn't cut or maintained during the 5 hour span you were on property doesn't mean it never gets cut or maintained.

[David Stewart]

Kyle,

I played there at least a dozen times when I lived in NC from 2010 to last spring. I have never seen it maintained at all. I've always seen it as native in 3 playing seasons. Has anyone ever seen it differently?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I played there at least a dozen times when I lived in NC from 2010 to last spring. I have never seen it maintained at all. I've always seen it as native in 3 playing seasons. Has anyone ever seen it differently?

Yes,

I've missed that green twice in three playings and haven't lost a ball in any of that. Both instances I had a played, but difficult, shot.

[David Stewart]

Kyle,

The question wasn't whether or not you lost a ball. I have found balls in the junk and been able to play them (difficultly, as you said). The question was whether or not the area surround the green was maintained. There are less thick spots here and there, but I have never seen it mowed/trimmed/etc.

[Scott Weersing]

The three attributes conspire to make for the success or notariety course.
- location ...  less than 2 miles off the main road from a metropolitan area (Raleigh) and close to a worldwide golf destination (Pinehurst)
- design ... arguably Strantz's best and most over the top work, but in complete contrast to the world famous course in the neighborhood
- price point ... less than Pinehurst or Pine Needles or even Mid Pines

All combine to make it a must and easy play while playing a bunch of other courses in the area

Tell me I am wrong.

"Synergy is two or more things functioning together to produce a result not
independently obtainable."

I have to agree that Tobacco Road has synergy in that it has great terrain which was then shaped by Mike Strantz. I enjoyed the variety of uphill holes, like 9 and 11, and the downhill holes of 7, 10 and 14.

I am not sure price point is something that contributes to the synergy.

Location probably hurts TB as it might get more play if it was closer to either Pinehurst or Raleigh.

What other courses have synergy?

I think Ballyneal has synergy with wind, walking only, no tee markers, and fast/firm conditions. All of these elements contribute to a great experience.

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