Trump Scotland #2

[David_Tepper]

Looks like the Donald is moving ahead to build a second course:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/358865

[David Davis]

+1 Brian.

A bit arrogant (not to mention uninformed) to claim the 2 best courses in the world. However, great that another surely excellent course is adding to the mix and finally putting Scotland on the golfing map! 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Could be nice this second course... I like the description that it will be a bit more "relaxed"...

[Tony_Muldoon]

I understand the course is now closed for 4 months. 

No doubt he's protected the "thousands" of jobs the scheme has created.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Brian
Couldn't you say the good Dr. earned a 2nd project after not having been fired?
Would it also be true that if he designs another very good  () golf course, that would define him as a better architect, possibly making the first course more notable?
Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

The headline seems misleading as they haven't actually started construction, or even sorted out the routing yet, from the sound of it.

Does that mean this course has to go in for a new round of environmental approvals?  How could they have gotten them in advance if they hadn't completed a plan?

[Brian_Ewen]

The headline seems misleading as they haven't actually started construction, or even sorted out the routing yet, from the sound of it.

I was under the impression the original plans showed routings for both courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

The headline seems misleading as they haven't actually started construction, or even sorted out the routing yet, from the sound of it.

Does that mean this course has to go in for a new round of environmental approvals?  How could they have gotten them in advance if they hadn't completed a plan?

If the second course is outside the SSSI then the planners might not require a super detailed EI report but rather general principles to be adhered to.

On another point. I passed by yesterday and had a quick 60 minute look at it. Yes, the location is world class as we know but I was struck by how the course looked placed into its setting rather than growing out of it. Some of the transitions were quite jarring. There was also a lot of the modelling that looked slightly manufactured and repetitive. Maybe this will change in time as it grows in but I have to say I was underwhelmed by the course itself. I hope it plays better.

Jon

[Jud_T]

Wow, the two best courses in the world right next to each other!  Just think of the statistical significance of that!  Think of the marketing possibilities!  Think of the logoed toilet paper!

[Jason Hines]

10,000 rounds on the first course in the first several months?  Is that true?  Good for them if it is...

[Bryan Izatt]

If they indeed did 10,000 rounds in three and a bit months, that is a pretty good start, although I doubt that it is sustainable over an eight month or a twelve month season.  I wonder what the breakeven rounds would need to be for the original course.  Where did the 10,000 people come from that were willing to pay twice as much for a new links course compared to a classic links course?  The power of marketing and branding, I guess.

Sounds like the second course will be routed on the inland side of the first course.  I doubt there will be the same environmental sensitivity given that some portion of that is already farmland, planted ironically with rapeseed.

It does sound like the the course will need to be routed around Trump's nemesis, the guy who "lives like a pig", whose property is at the end of the driving range.  I'm sure that guy will be happy to be living on a property surrounded by a berm.

Re Trump and his real estate development, there was a story in the Toronto paper today regarding his namesake luxury condo hotel recently finished here.  Seems that his lawyers are suing seven buyers to enforce them going through with their purchases.  There is at least one counter suit launched seeking $750,000 in damages for "misrepresentation".  Seems some purchasers aren't getting what they though they were getting, an example of caveat emptor.  Perhaps the Scots should track these legal battles; there might be some lessons to learn.

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1289698--trump-tower-developer-suing-7-disgruntled-investors-to-close-deals-they-now-regret

[Jon Wiggett]

10,000 rounds on the first course in the first several months?  Is that true?  Good for them if it is...

Sounds like a lot. Course was empty when I looked at it the other day. The other question is of course how many were paying rounds?

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

Bryan - Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart seem to do well charging considerably more than the standard classic links do I cannot see the cost being an issue with Trump's course. I wouldn't pay full whack to play any of them but then I'm not the average player.

[Sean_A]

I am heading up to Aberdeen next June.  Trump isn't on the cards as return visits to Cruden Bay and R Aberdeen with games at Montrose and Carnoustie Burnside are grabbing my attention.  Costing more than CB And RA combined, Trump is simply unaffordable - likewise for Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns.  Unless CB and RA buck the trend of rising green fees in Scotland, I suspect this will be my last trip in this area. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

  Where did the 10,000 people come from that were willing to pay twice as much for a new links course compared to a classic links course?

Cruden Bay is 80 quid for a weekday all day rate.  You could probably easily get 54 holes in there in June if not 72.  Trump is 195 quid weekday.  I'm guessing "free replay rate" and The Donald are mutually exclusive entities.  

[Niall C]

Jon

The likely reason that the course was empty on your recent visit was probably because it was closed. I understand they were closing it for 3 or 4 months to get it into shape.

Brian S

What's the issue with Hawtree ? Personally I think Hawtree and his team did a good job with a less than ideal site. Even without the regulatory restrictions placed on them, the physical constraints of the site such as the near vertical dune systems and extensive marshlands must have restricted the option on the routing quite a bit.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon

The likely reason that the course was empty on your recent visit was probably because it was closed. I understand they were closing it for 3 or 4 months to get it into shape.

Brian S

What's the issue with Hawtree ? Personally I think Hawtree and his team did a good job with a less than ideal site. Even without the regulatory restrictions placed on them, the physical constraints of the site such as the near vertical dune systems and extensive marshlands must have restricted the option on the routing quite a bit.

Niall

If we're going to call this site "less than ideal" then I'd be happy to work on less than ideal sites for the rest of my life!... The routing is a pretty good one in my opinion... Personally, I'd have preferred to see more green complexes being tied directly in to the dunes as opposed to swales and run-offs being incorporated around all sides - number 8 green is a class act: more of that kind of thing - but I can understand that a tough course was asked for and the green complex designs have certainly provided that... 

[Niall C]

Ally

Can't disagree with anything you said and I'm sure that many gca's would be delighted to be building in sand, where ever it was. But as good as the routing is, you'll never convince me that the 10th is anything but a compromise. Adam Lawrence suggested that the land for the second course might make a better course and I can imagine that if it allowed the course to be routed over and on top of the dunes, as well as just playing in the valleys, then it could well be.

Again agree with your comments on green verges althoguh I thought the internal contouring was excellent with loads of interest without bordering on fun ride stuff. If I was going to have another gripe it would be at the bunkering which was way overdone and mostly lacked imagination in shaping.

Niall

ps. not having a dig at you here (honest !) but noticed in the Strandhill thread that you thought it right that the club didn't build 3 new holes in the dune system because its protected but you were happy with Trump building his course. To your mind, what's the difference ?

[Tony_Muldoon]

But guys can't we agree the routing is a Fazio?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Can't disagree with anything you said and I'm sure that many gca's would be delighted to be building in sand, where ever it was. But as good as the routing is, you'll never convince me that the 10th is anything but a compromise. Adam Lawrence suggested that the land for the second course might make a better course and I can imagine that if it allowed the course to be routed over and on top of the dunes, as well as just playing in the valleys, then it could well be.

Again agree with your comments on green verges althoguh I thought the internal contouring was excellent with loads of interest without bordering on fun ride stuff. If I was going to have another gripe it would be at the bunkering which was way overdone and mostly lacked imagination in shaping.

Niall

ps. not having a dig at you here (honest !) but noticed in the Strandhill thread that you thought it right that the club didn't build 3 new holes in the dune system because its protected but you were happy with Trump building his course. To your mind, what's the difference ?

Hi Niall, you picked up the wrong person on the Strandhill thread... I was actually advocating that they do build those holes if done right... Incidentally, I wasn't completely pro-Trump / anti-environmental either... Mike Wood put together an alternate routing for the Trump course at one point that showed how it could avoid the sand dome but still utilise effectively the whole of the current front nine... Having seen the approach taken, I might have been more in favour of that compronise...

[Steve Lapper]

 Fazio had nothing to do with this routing.

 Before the noise rolls off the tongues flapping of those who've yet to see the course, I suggest a refrain from pure speculation and see it for yourself. After all, don't forget the likes of Shackleford, Klein, Passov and Baum all unanimously praised the routing, design and construction.....oops I forgot most of you also believe you know more (and dream you've seen more) than them!

 Isn't such speculation and negative inference fundamentally no different than the hyperbole many of you so endeavor to sneer at?

 BTW...I'm not at all sure that any 2nd course construction will start anytime soon.

[Mark Pearce]

Steve Lapper,

Those commenting on the first course in this thread have seen it.  Of course, had you read the thread rather than just pile in you'd have known that.  You'd also have seen an absence of sneering at hyperbole but that would have deprived you of the chance to sneer yourself, which would have been a shame.

[Steve Lapper]

Steve Lapper,

Those commenting on the first course in this thread have seen it.  Of course, had you read the thread rather than just pile in you'd have known that.  You'd also have seen an absence of sneering at hyperbole but that would have deprived you of the chance to sneer yourself, which would have been a shame.

Mark,

Really? When I look back and re-read this (and past Trump Scotland) threads, I notice at least 35-to-60% of those opening have yet to play there yet. But of course, I'll leave it to you to tell me what I'm missing.

 "Piling in." That's funny. How often do I post around here? The answer is less and less as GCA frequently turns into verbal tidal pool of drivel, repetition and hearsay. For example, is the 1st course busy (yes it was once opened to the public); 10k rounds played?(pretty damn close); empty of late? ( closed down a few weeks ago for TLC and preventive turf maintenance).  But of course, you know all that already because you are an expert, no? I don't know much but only stayed in a Holiday Inn Express next door to the club's terrific GM and staff.

Finally, for sneering, I prefer to separate the owner's ego from the quality of the course and to avoid making glib remarks uniformly critical of people intimately involved in the game of golf. Well....I'll not disturb you any further from your goal of making stuff up and posting it. With such great potential, I'd not want to be the one to end the entertainment. Cheers!

[William_G]

it's just so unfortunate that it's a "trump"

[Patrick_Mucci]

it's just so unfortunate that it's a "trump"

William,

If it wasn't a "Trump" it wouldn't have been built.

You have to learn to take the good with the bad, the bitter with the sweet.