[Mark Pearce]

Depending on what length a "short" par 4 is, I'd throw the 1st and 8th at Northumberland into the mix.  The 1stplays 319 yards from the tips and is much shorter than that as the crow flies,driving down into a valley and then wedging up to the green,if you're mortal, or hitting 3 wood to the green if you're "elite".  8 plays 350 yards from the tips or 300 from the yellow tees.  A really good driver/wedge hole, with a tricky enough green to keep you thinking.

[Paul_Turner]

Pics of the 10th at Royal Belfast.  It's about 310 from tips, plays uphill but you can cut the corner of you dare.

[James Boon]

How about...

Royal Porthcawl, 10th, 330ish yards (was this Colt?)
Royal Worlington & Newmarket, 9th, 290 yards

Of those mentioned, I certainly loved the 8th at Brancepeth Castle. I preferred the 16th at Edgbaston to the 11th (but maybe that was because hitting the green was a lot easier downhill...  ) and on one play only, neither of those you mention at Northamptonshire did anything for me Sean?

Paul, those pictures of the 10th at Royal Belfast certainly look interesting!

So based on the posts so far what are peoples conclusions, if they have formed any? I was expecting to come up with a whole raft of contenders, but really had to think in the end. Compared to say MacKenzie or Braid who do seem to have a lot of excellent short par 4s to their name, Colt could perhaps be seen to be lacking in this area? 

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Boonie

The two Northamptonshire examples suffer visually, but both are clever holes.  The 5th is especially so, but I think it should be just a tad shorter so more guys can have a go.  Being short in the swale is a very difficult shot to a raised green running away from play, but it looks completely innocent. 

Edgbaston's 11th too suffers visually - well so does the 16th.  The 16th could really be improved with loads of tree removal and a bit more bunker shortish right of the green.  The green though is very, very good. 


Ciao
 

[Paul_Turner]

Meyrick Park's 9th is a fine one.  The 16th is too with it's left to right run up option.

The 9th.  It's England's oldest municipal, I think. It could do with a little love.

[Frank M]

Great great short 4

[Paul_Turner]

It's not a great photo, but the 13th at Churston in Devon is a cracking short par 4 on a pretty course.  Churston is a "Colt" with a somewhat hazy future.  A developer wants the 1st and 18th for housing...  I wonder if it will be around for much longer.

[JNC Lyon]

11 at Swinley Forest?  I thought this was a great short par four when I played there.  You have to hit a slider up the right hand side to get a good angle for the pitch, or you can try to hit a slinging draw onto the green.  Simple hole, but very effective.  It's also the middle of a great stretch of golf holes.

[Tom Kelly]

Meyrick Park's 9th is a fine one.  The 16th is too with it's left to right run up option.

The 9th.  It's England's oldest municipal, I think. It could do with a little love.

Paul,

I don't want to thread jack, but any chance of re-linking/posting the old pics of Meyrick Park on the thread linked below?!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,13751.0.html

I'm really keen to see the old pics of what once was/could be a great little course.

Sean/James,

the 16th at Edgbaston is still a really fun hole for most golfers but I think with technology and added length etc. the strategy has been lost for the bigger hitters. The bunker short doesn't really come into play anymore and although a really interesting green I don't think it is protected enough to deter people from going for the green. I have even seen it hit with an iron off the tee a few times. Really it could do with abit of added length to bring the fronting bunker short back into play but that isn't going to happen. As Sean mentions the whole place could do with a bit of tlc and a chainsaw as there is a pretty good course hidden at Edgbaston.


One Colt short 4 that isn't going to win any prizes but is quite an interesting hole is the 2nd at Effingham. Its a sub 300 yard par 4 that plays over a blind crest with the fairway also dropping away to the right and O.O.B left. The green drops off on both the back and sides and is angled slightly from front left to back right with a bunker protecting the front right. It asks for the tee shot to hold the left side of the fairway to gain the best angle in/chance of running the ball onto the green. Anything right is safe but leaves an awkward approach. I will try to post a pic or two at some point though I think mine are pretty rubbish from what I remember.

[Tony_Muldoon]

This tread is persuading me that on balance the evidence is that this length of hole didn’t  interest Colt that much.   No one is  coming up with examples from his most prestigious commissions or ‘Championship’ work .e.g Wentworth, Portrush Dunluce.  There’s a few in the Heathlands mentioned above and several of us have seen nice examples at lesser known courses, but none seem to compare that well with e.g. Riviera 10th or my favourites,  Alwoodley’s 5th or Stoneham's 13th.


By ‘short’ I’m thinking Driver/Wedge or less, for the skilled players, typically upto 340 yards?  For the pro’s that would be 400 yards?

[Adam Lawrence]

Tony - that's the conclusion I was inching towards when I started it. There is a passage on the subject in 'Some Essays...' which I will post at the weekend when I get home and have my books to hand, in which he basically says the almost-but-not-quite drivable hole is the least likely to be good.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tony,

whilst Alwoodley has a couple of good short par 4's the 5th which is an excellent hole is hardly a short par four at 340ish from the yellows and 369 from the backs.

Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony,

whilst Alwoodley has a couple of good short par 4's the 5th which is an excellent hole is hardly a short par four at 340ish from the yellows and 369 from the backs.

Jon

I must have been on form that day! Stoneham's is less than 300.

[Sean_A]

This tread is persuading me that on balance the evidence is that this length of hole didn’t  interest Colt that much.   No one is  coming up with examples from his most prestigious commissions or ‘Championship’ work .e.g Wentworth, Portrush Dunluce.  There’s a few in the Heathlands mentioned above and several of us have seen nice examples at lesser known courses, but none seem to compare that well with e.g. Riviera 10th or my favourites,  Alwoodley’s 5th or Stoneham's 13th.


By ‘short’ I’m thinking Driver/Wedge or less, for the skilled players, typically upto 340 yards?  For the pro’s that would be 400 yards?

Spangles

I am with you.  Colt didn't seem to like the idea of the short par 4 very well.  I wonder if, like blind shots, Colt was rebelling against the type as I imagine they were plentiful before his time and I think there were gooduns he would have known.   

You and I always mention Stoneham when short 4s is the topic of discussion. I am particularly fond of short 4s using poor, uninteresting or severe land and that is why I drift toward the likes of Kington's 18th, St Enodoc's 4th, Little Aston's 4th & 14th (I wonder what Colt did exactly at Little Aston?), Beau Desert's 9th etc.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Tony,

whilst Alwoodley has a couple of good short par 4's the 5th which is an excellent hole is hardly a short par four at 340ish from the yellows and 369 from the backs.

Jon

I must have been on form that day! Stoneham's is less than 300.

Tony,

Drive and a wedge is good on the 5th though I have to say I have only played it from the back in the 50 or so times I have played it I never recall anything less than a 9 iron into it.

It is interesting that on one side I agree that a short par 4 could be described as a drive and a wedge making anything within 370 yards such a hole for me on paper and for some tour boys 480 yards but then in reality 350 yarders often play as longer than the wedge for me so It must surely be more to do with how a hole plays rather than the length.
 For non Colts isn't the 17th at Prestwick in the great bracket?

Jon

[Paul_Turner]

Adam

Yes he definitely wrote that the driveable par 4 was not his "cup of tea".  He thought it was difficult to make a hole of that length play well in all weather conditions.  Although from memory his quote doesn't rule these out completely- he is critical of formulas.  

I wonder if the 4th at SGH was driveable back in 1913?  Perhaps.

Of course really short par 4s (driveable) are a relatively rare no matter the architect.  So some of this is just random chance.  How many great v short par 4s do Simpson, Fowler, Braid, et al have?  

Is there a really fine one on the Eden?  The 4th or 7th or both?  It's been too long.

On his Championship courses,  I think Hamilton 5th and Muirfield 11th are the best.

Tony

I wonder if building a hole like Riviera's 10th would have ever been contemplated in the UK at that time, with the UK's changing playing conditions?  Would it be playable without the large amount of watering needed in CA to keep most courses alive?

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