[Tommy Williamsen]

I cannot believe Myopia Hunt has never been ranked  .  That is one of my all time favorites.

I absolutely love MHC. It is one of the most enjoyable rounds in Massachusetts. You would think that it would have made the list at least once.  I certainly like it better than Salem.  The problem is that Salem may be a better course but I'd much rather play Myopia.

[Jim Colton]

Jim:

That's fascinating.

Quaker Ridge was 14th, twenty years ago.  Colonial and Oak Tree and Long Cove were all in the top 20 at one time, all of them gone now.

And it's even more fascinating when you know that they still give "tradition" points to courses that have previously been on the list.  Without that fudge factor, the divergence would be even greater.

Tom,

  What work did you do at Kemper Lakes?

[Tom Allen]

Wow.  You learn something every day.  I have been entering course rankings into my own spreadsheet for years (comparing the GD, Golf, and GW lists).  Well, that just ended, because these lists apparently exist in pretty much the same format already.  Thanks for the links!

[Paul Richards]

JIm, don't know how on earth you did it that fast (maybe I need a real computer lesson!) but I much appreciate it.  Cheers! Paul

[Chris Shaida]

JIm, don't know how on earth you did it that fast (maybe I need a real computer lesson!) but I much appreciate it.  Cheers! Paul

+1! (and I consider myself reasonably 'tech-ish') impressive!

[Jim Colton]

It was actually a little trickier than I thought it would be, simply because they had some inconsistencies in that long list and the type of rankings had changed over time.

[Mark Studer]

Also I am curious as to what changed with Crystal Downs that it went from not making lists to being highly ranked? I am sure Tom or someone else could clue me in a little bit more on this. It had a rather meteoric rise (if anything it might still be ranked too low), but to the best of my knowledge the course is pretty much the same.

For years Crystal Downs did not have enough ballots to get on the list.

Crystal Downs was relatively unknown in 1983 when I first became involved with the GOLF Magazine rankings.  I put it on the ballot in '83 to see if anyone else had seen it, and the only panelist who'd been there was Jack Nicklaus, who played it on a family vacation when he was a kid.  So, I started trying to get a few panelist types up to play it.  It first showed up on the GOLF Magazine list in 1987 or 1989, I think, and was featured prominently in the first edition of The Confidential Guide, and then some more GOLF DIGEST panelists showed up.

The sad thing about Camargo is that it fell off the list just as they finished restoring it to its former glory.  The direction of how a course is faring in the rankings and what is happening on the ground there are sometimes completely unrelated or even opposed.  That's a great place, regardless of whether it's in the list or not.  I guess something's gotta fall out to make room for the b.s. courses like Rich Harvest Farms.

     I believe that Crystal's hosting the US Senior Am in 1991 increased many golf fans' awareness  of its greatness.  I have been lucky enough to enjoy it when it is firm and fast at the end of summer on the way to visit my mom in Leland Michigan.  One of my personal favorites with all the available running shots to the greens.

[Tom_Doak]

   I believe that Crystal's hosting the US Senior Am in 1991 increased many golf fans' awareness  of its greatness.  I have been lucky enough to enjoy it when it is firm and fast at the end of summer on the way to visit my mom in Leland Michigan.  One of my personal favorites with all the available running shots to the greens.

Mark:

That is true, I'd forgotten that piece of the puzzle.  However, a lot of the competitors at the Senior Am seemed to discount the course due to the severe conditions (cold and windy) and some mistakes in the set-up that left a couple of holes playing quite unfairly.  #11 is hard enough without putting the hole middle left, where the ball just won't stay.

Jim:

Why did you ask me about Kemper Lakes??  My former associate Tom Mead helped them out a little bit the year after we finished work in Bandon, making some of the bunkers smaller when they were going to put new sand in them all.  I would never have counted that as "doing" anything architecturally.

[Alex Lagowitz]

   I believe that Crystal's hosting the US Senior Am in 1991 increased many golf fans' awareness  of its greatness.  I have been lucky enough to enjoy it when it is firm and fast at the end of summer on the way to visit my mom in Leland Michigan.  One of my personal favorites with all the available running shots to the greens.

Mark:

That is true, I'd forgotten that piece of the puzzle.  However, a lot of the competitors at the Senior Am seemed to discount the course due to the severe conditions (cold and windy) and some mistakes in the set-up that left a couple of holes playing quite unfairly.  #11 is hard enough without putting the hole middle left, where the ball just won't stay.

Jim:

Why did you ask me about Kemper Lakes??  My former associate Tom Mead helped them out a little bit the year after we finished work in Bandon, making some of the bunkers smaller when they were going to put new sand in them all.  I would never have counted that as "doing" anything architecturally.

Tom,

This is what Golf Digest has:

Kemper Lakes G.C., Hawthorn Woods, Ill.
Ken Killian & Dick Nugent, 1979.
Remodeled by Ken Killian, 1987.
Remodeled by Tom Doak, 2002.

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