[Jud_T]

Brian,

Comparing Butler and Old Mac?  I thought windowpane of that strength went out of fashion after Sid Barrett went off the deep end...

[J_ Crisham]

Am I the only one that absolutely loves #4 at Beverly? I think it's my favorite hole on the course. Also think 5 at Butler National is a fantastic par 3 and could fit well. Maybe we could have a Tom Doak-ish 34-37 = 71 like at Old Mac?

I agree that 4 is a really solid hole- I consider it the toughest tee shot on the course. The approach is difficult with a south wind which brings OB into play. The stretch of 4 thru 7 is the hardest for me. All 4 of the tee shots must be very precise to have a chance at parring any of them.

[Matthew Sander]

Jack C.,

I happen to agree with you regarding the 5th at Beverly. Normally, the descriptor "it's all there in front of you..." is a bit over-rated, but from the tee you can really sense the drastic uphill nature of the upcoming approach shot. The 5th and 16th left the biggest impressions during my somewhat recent visit.

Regardng the discussions of a 3rd hole, I really like the strategic value of the shortish par 4 at The Highlands of Elgin. Below are photos and some comments from a photo tour I previously posted of the course...

Hole 3 (Par 4 383)

Several of the guys thought this was the best hole on the course and I agree with them. This view from the tee gives you an idea of the massive width of the playing corridor and the related options. Lay up short of the bunkers, hit a little more club left of the bunkers, blow it over the bunkers with driver, or take an aggressive line directly at the green. The drive directly at the green must carry 250 to cover the wetland and you must also avoid more wetland on the right.



This is what you have left when laying up short of the bunkers...



This is the view when you drive over the bunkers. This option leaves you a delicate pitch over the front left bunker to the green which isn't very receptive from this angle.



...or take a more aggressive line right of the bunkers leaving an open approach.

[Mark Smolens]

I usually aim right at the bunkers on Highland's #3, knowing that I'm pretty unlikely to hit the ball where I'm aimed. If I pull it, I get the shot from the left, and if I push it (but hit it well enough to carry), I get the open look.

Should the architect be creating "options" for the guys who hit it where they aim like Seitz, or the rest of us who rarely have a clue?

[Terry Lavin]

Here's a reasonably final list.  I forced number 13, so I'd be interested in hearing nominees for that hole.  Also, I probably overreached with #7, the short par-3 at Evanston, so that's fairly vulnerable.  I'd be interested in seeing options for these, and arguments about the rest, of course!

1.  Chicago Golf Club, medium/long par-4
2.  Knollwood Club, short par-4
3.  Glen View Club, par-4
4.  Edgewood Valley, short par-3
5.  Shoreacres, long par-4
6.  Olympia South, short par-4
7.  Evanston Golf Club, par-3
8.  Skokie, long par-4
9.  Medinah #1 par-5

10. Butler National, long par-4
11. Shoreacres, par-4
12. Medinah #3, long par-4
13. North Shore, short par-4
14. Olympia Fields North, long par-4
15.
16. Cog Hill #4 medium par-4
17. Naperville CC, par-3
18. Beverly CC, long par-5

[J_ Crisham]

Terry,   I would submit that #5 at Beverly is a smidgeon better than 5 at SA.  The tee shot has to be precise- long and straight avoiding the left bunker. The green is pretty treacherous as you well know. 17 at Chicago Highlands is pretty solid but I struggle to put it at the same level as 17 at Bev. Our greenside bunkering and severity of slope makes for one of the most challenging but fun holes on the course. The right tee box on 17 is as frightening a look as we have. Sorry to be a homer but.....

[Bradley Anderson]

Terry,

I still think Beverly has by far the best #2 in Chicago.

I agree with your #1, #8, #11 and #14.

I have to go with Shoreacres #15.

But I still haven't worked the list out for a par 72.

[Terry Lavin]

Jack,

I'm sure people could make an argument that just about any hole on the list could be replaced by another hole at another course.  The hard part is to come up with 18 great holes in their "proper" order and not put more than one hole from each course.

[Terry Lavin]

Terry,

I still think Beverly has by far the best #2 in Chicago.

I agree with your #1, #8, #11 and #14.

I have to go with Shoreacres #15.

But I still haven't worked the list out for a par 72.

I could make an argument that #2 at Olympia South is better than #2 at Beverly.  Heck, even #2 at Olympia North is better than #2 at the Bev, which is the weakest of the four par-5's at Beverly in my estimation, and I've been a member for 25 years.

[Dan Moore]

I'll second OF South #6 (Bendelow) and Medinah 3 #12 (Bendelow/Langford) as as a world class par 4's and nominate Old Elm #9 (Colt/Ross) as a short par 4 and Flossmoor #11 (Tweedie original) as a stout uphill par 3 with a great runaway green.  I think Langfords 16th at either Skokie or Glen Oak might fit the bill.  I haven't seen Glen Oak's 16th but at 245 yards if its almost as good as Lawsonia's 10th that would be something. 

[Sven Nilsen]

15 at Skokie?  Come on, guy.

The integrity of this "routing" is in serious question if you're going to use a hole that isn't even in the best 9 holes from that course.

[J_ Crisham]

Terry,

I still think Beverly has by far the best #2 in Chicago.

I agree with your #1, #8, #11 and #14.

I have to go with Shoreacres #15.

But I still haven't worked the list out for a par 72.

I could make an argument that #2 at Olympia South is better than #2 at Beverly.  Heck, even #2 at Olympia North is better than #2 at the Bev, which is the weakest of the four par-5's at Beverly in my estimation, and I've been a member for 25 years.

The neighborhood ambiance at Bev on #2 in the Summer- the smells wafting over the fence, loud music etc- you won't get that at OFCC!

[Terry Lavin]

15 at Skokie?  Come on, guy.

The integrity of this "routing" is in serious question if you're going to use a hole that isn't even in the best 9 holes from that course.

I know, I was reaching.  Help a guy out.  Find a good 15th hole on a course that hasn't been mentioned as long as it's not from Shephard's Fricking Crook, the Lowlands of Elgin or somewhere in Minnesota and I'll gladly get rid of that Skokie hole.  Which Skokie hole should then replace one of the others I put together?  

Work with me, don't be a Republican and just say, "No".

[JR Potts]

#17 at Chicago Highlands?  What's great about that hole?  I would pick the 8th hole on any of Butterfield's three 9's over the 17th at Chicago Highlands.  Christ, I would pick the 17th on course #2 at Medinah over the 17th at CH.

Dan - #16 at Glen Oak is a great hole with a great green. 

[Terry Lavin]

#17 at Chicago Highlands?  What's great about that hole?  I would pick the 8th hole on any of Butterfield's three 9's over the 17th at Chicago Highlands.  Christ, I would pick the 17th on course #2 at Medinah over the 17th at CH.

Dan - #16 at Glen Oak is a great hole with a great green.  

Potts,

Thanks for entering the fray.  I was throwing a bone by including 17 at Hinsdale Harborside...er...Chicago Highlands (which looks a little like a Dismal River hole), but can you think of another 17th hole (preferably a par-3), that could substitute for that hole?  Remember, however, that we can't use a course more than once.

[J_ Crisham]

17 at Naperville CC is a hell of a par 3. About 210 with water down the left side . Great bunkering greenside as well. One of the better par 3's in Chicago.

[Terry Lavin]

17 at Naperville CC is a hell of a par 3. About 210 with water down the left side . Great bunkering greenside as well. One of the better par 3's in Chicago.

Okay, I'll accept that nomination.  I also recognize that Sven is correct that 15 at Skokie is not among the glitterati at that course, so I've removed #8 from Exmoor and inserted the 8th from Skokie, a terrific long par-4 with a big uphill plateau green, sort of like #5 at Beverly, on steroids.  Now we need a great 15th hole from a course not yet utilized.  How is 15 at Exmoor?  Only played there twice and I don't recall it at the moment.  Maybe 15 at Glen Club?  Nominations, please. 

This is a little like making legislation, dontcha think?

[PCCraig]

The 15th at Old Elm Club is a really fun drive and pitch short par-4 with a really tricky green.

Also, the 15th at Shoreacres is an all world par-5.

[Dan Kelly]

Find a good 15th hole on a course that hasn't been mentioned as long as it's not from Shephard's Fricking Crook, the Lowlands of Elgin or somewhere in Minnesota and I'll gladly get rid of that Skokie hole.

The 15th at Stillwater Country Club (Stillwater, Minnesota) is a really fine, stout-hearted par-4 ... in case you can't find anything worthy in Chicagoland.

[Howard Riefs]

Hole 3 (Par 4 383)

Several of the guys thought this was the best hole on the course and I agree with them. This view from the tee gives you an idea of the massive width of the playing corridor and the related options. Lay up short of the bunkers, hit a little more club left of the bunkers, blow it over the bunkers with driver, or take an aggressive line directly at the green. The drive directly at the green must carry 250 to cover the wetland and you must also avoid more wetland on the right.

Nice hole. There's also a nasty fall-off on the front right side of the green near the bag in the above picture. From down there, the green's about five feet up. Not an ideal spot when you find yourself short-sided. Trust me.

[Carl Nichols]

Terry:
I haven't played all of the courses on your list, but you could swap #5 at Butler for #5 at Shoreacres, thereby leaving more room for #15 at Shoreacres.  I would then delete #10 at Butler, both because I don't think it's that great a hole and because it would leave you again with only one hole at Butler.  Unfortunately I don't have a great #10 to substitute for the one at Butler that isn't #10 at Shoreacres (which I kinda prefer to #11).

[Sven Nilsen]

15 at Skokie?  Come on, guy.

The integrity of this "routing" is in serious question if you're going to use a hole that isn't even in the best 9 holes from that course.

I know, I was reaching.  Help a guy out.  Find a good 15th hole on a course that hasn't been mentioned as long as it's not from Shephard's Fricking Crook, the Lowlands of Elgin or somewhere in Minnesota and I'll gladly get rid of that Skokie hole.  Which Skokie hole should then replace one of the others I put together?  

Work with me, don't be a Republican and just say, "No".

Actually, the 15th at the Crook is a better hole than the 15th at Skokie.  When you get to see it (if invited), you'll see why.

[Howard Riefs]

17 at Naperville CC is a hell of a par 3. About 210 with water down the left side . Great bunkering greenside as well. One of the better par 3's in Chicago.

It it worth omitting Flossmoor #17?

[Sven Nilsen]

Shoreacres 15 is probably the best of the bunch for that number.  If its out because you're including another hole from that course, my nomination would be the 15th at Spring Valley. 

Since we're requiring analysis these days, here goes:

A stout par 4 with a slight left to right dogleg.  A bunker was planned for the inside of the dogleg, but is not necessarily in play off of the tee.  The green sits at the top of the upslope, and requires a long and true shot to hold the surface (anything else will be shrugged off either left, right or short.  The green contours themselves are replete with multiple humps and bumps creating a series of pinnable areas on the massive back to front sloping surface.

[Terry Lavin]

Spring Valley?  At least the Lowlands of Elgin is in Illinois!

As for 17 at Flossmoor, I agree with Links, it needs to be on the list.

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