[Tim Martin]

What makes you think a man that did the same thing over and over again was exceptional?

Are you saying that Raynor's work is not exceptional or the man himself? Better yet is there a distinction?

[Garland Bayley]

What makes you think a man that did the same thing over and over again was exceptional?

Are you saying that Raynor's work is not exceptional or the man himself? Better yet is there a distinction?

I'm saying that without him going out and doing some totally original work, there is not enough evidence to judge his exceptionality.
Most people can master repetitive tasks.

[Tim Martin]

What makes you think a man that did the same thing over and over again was exceptional?

Are you saying that Raynor's work is not exceptional or the man himself? Better yet is there a distinction?

I'm saying that without him going out and doing some totally original work, there is not enough evidence to judge his exceptionality.
Most people can master repetitive tasks.

So all your giving him credit for is just building template holes? Really?

[Adam Clayman]

Connor,

 You touched on not understanding Raynor's look as appealing? Did I get that right?

In the olden days on gca, this juxtaposition to nature, not only accentuated all the natural around SR's "engineered" features, it help define this medium as an Art.

There's an old photo out there, somewhere, that shows Sleepy's Short in several iterations. Amazing how the current iteration causes the Hudson and background to "pop".

[Connor Dougherty]

Connor,

 You touched on not understanding Raynor's look as appealing? Did I get that right?

In the olden days on gca, this juxtaposition to nature, not only accentuated all the natural around SR's "engineered" features, it help define this medium as an Art.

I actually find it very appealing. Going back to the short hole at Sleepy Hollow, I wonder what that hole would look like with rugged bunkers. It may blend into the landscape better, but it could also distract from the unbelievable backdrop on that hole. The juxtaposition of what appears to be order and chaos is incredible.

I just generally have a preference for the rugged look largely because I'm on the west coast and most of the great courses have the rugged, natural look.

[Tom_Doak]

Connor,

 You touched on not understanding Raynor's look as appealing? Did I get that right?

In the olden days on gca, this juxtaposition to nature, not only accentuated all the natural around SR's "engineered" features, it help define this medium as an Art.

There's an old photo out there, somewhere, that shows Sleepy's Short in several iterations. Amazing how the current iteration causes the Hudson and background to "pop".

Adam:

I have seen those pictures, and agree that Raynor's version of the Short hole (as restored) is far and away the best of the bunch, aesthetically.  But, do you really think that Raynor knew and understood that ... or even cared?  What would be your evidence for your view?

I think Raynor gets a lot of credit for things he didn't really think about.

[Jim_Kennedy]

 But, do you really think that Raynor knew and understood that ... or even cared?  What would be your evidence for your view?
I think Raynor gets a lot of credit for things he didn't really think about.

He must have understood that relationship, he used it in many other places, and I don't think he could have been so closely aligned with, nor held in such high esteem by CBM, if he didn't.

 

[Bradley Anderson]

Connor,

I agree that Raynor built on rigid lines, but I think that part of the appeal which his work has on us is in how those lines often tie in so nicely with elements of nature. Especially in an environment like Illinois that was shaped by glaciers.

We have no mountain ridges on the horizon, sinuous growing trees like the Cyprus, or a jagged coastline to follow. Our trees grow on vertical and horizontal planes; the prairie horizon is flat; grasses in the deep rough produce vertical seed heads; erosion follows the path of least resistance with limited twists and turns etc.

[Tom_Doak]

 But, do you really think that Raynor knew and understood that ... or even cared?  What would be your evidence for your view?
I think Raynor gets a lot of credit for things he didn't really think about.

He must have understood that relationship, he used it in many other places, and I don't think he could have been so closely aligned with, nor held in such high esteem by CBM, if he didn't.

Jim:

Where are your quotes from Macdonald indicating his interest in aesthetics, or his fondness for the way Raynor handled them?  [Note that I am more inclined to believe that Macdonald cared about them, because his interest in golf tied back to every aspect of the golf experience he learned in the early days in Scotland, when the game was of a more adventurous nature.  Raynor had none of that background ... but Macdonald may not have been bothered by that, since he himself brought it to the table.]

Have you not seen any Raynor courses where the style of bunkering looked out of place or clashed with the aesthetics of the property?

[Mac Plumart]

Have you not seen any Raynor courses where the style of bunkering looked out of place or clashed with the aesthetics of the property?

Tom, I think every Raynor and CBM course I've ever played* has bunkering the looked out of place and clashed with the aesthetics of the property.  Perhaps none worse than Chicago Golf Club.

BUT...

each and everyone of those courses has been, at a very minimum, fun!  

I wonder if Raynor stumbled upon the fact that golf is a sporting adventure and not an art class.  Aesthetically pleasing is one thing, but I truly don't believe it is a requirement for good, fun, enjoyable golf.  


*To put this comment in context, I've played the following Raynor/CBM courses so far:  NGLA, Chicago, Yeamans, Southampton, Lookout Mountain, Shoreacres, Fishers...pretty sure that is all.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim:

Where are your quotes from Macdonald indicating his interest in aesthetics, or his fondness for the way Raynor handled them?  [Note that I am more inclined to believe that Macdonald cared about them, because his interest in golf tied back to every aspect of the golf experience he learned in the early days in Scotland, when the game was of a more adventurous nature.  Raynor had none of that background ... but Macdonald may not have been bothered by that, since he himself brought it to the table.]

Do you honestly think that a man like Macdonald, a man who had a very high opinion of himself, would have maintained such a long term association w/Raynor if Raynor could not understand the aesthetic side of architecture?
Would you have a long term relationship w/an associate who was aesthetically challenged?

Have you not seen any Raynor courses where the style of bunkering looked out of place or clashed with the aesthetics of the property?

That's your point of view, one that doesn't seem to bother the raters or the hundreds of members at the 12 or so Raynor courses that contiinually pop up on the '100 best' lists. They can't all be blind.
I enjoy Raynor's bunker style because they are honest and fit their locales, they aren't faux dunes grass encrusted fairy tales created by an architect on an inland course that isn't within 100 miles of any other sandy formation.

[Adam Clayman]

 Tom, Isn't it immaterial if he knew it?

 I don't know anything about his life. While he was an engineer, did he have an interest in the arts? Were his "friends" artists? This was the art deco period, wasn't it? In NYC.

My view that it's art is my view. I don't believe I need evidence that he built it to be artistic, to view it as such.

How many 'out of place' features has Pete Dye built? Is a zillion close?

[Tim Martin]

Connor,

 You touched on not understanding Raynor's look as appealing? Did I get that right?

In the olden days on gca, this juxtaposition to nature, not only accentuated all the natural around SR's "engineered" features, it help define this medium as an Art.

There's an old photo out there, somewhere, that shows Sleepy's Short in several iterations. Amazing how the current iteration causes the Hudson and background to "pop".

Adam:

I have seen those pictures, and agree that Raynor's version of the Short hole (as restored) is far and away the best of the bunch, aesthetically.  But, do you really think that Raynor knew and understood that ... or even cared?  What would be your evidence for your view?

I think Raynor gets a lot of credit for things he didn't really think about.

Tom- I am having a hard time trying to understand your last sentence. Could you elaborate on what credit you think Raynor received for things he didn't think about? Thanks.

[William_G]

I doubt humans crave order. I think they just are too limited in their abilities so that they end up creating order by default. It is the truly exceptional that produce things that are recognized as brilliant without the inherent order.

correct

[William_G]

Connor,

Welcome to the cuckoo's nest...

Let's tee it up sometime, as I live in EUG.

I love landscape architecture! Good luck with school, go hard or go home!

Humans don't necessaril crave order like in the movie Wall-E.

Humans just find order easier... Van Gogh designed/made drawings of a lot of stuff to make life easier..

Making it easier is what captivates humans, the execption is those who look for something different and intriguing.

[Sean_A]

I am heading more and more toward there being little importance of aesthtetic style.  A good archie will find ways to make holes look right (note I consider this far more important than being natural) no matter how manufactured or not they are.  To be frank, most of the time we talk about "natural" courses I find it laughable.  Natural to me is believing what exists in the ground for golf could exist in nature.  Nearly all of the time the bunkering throws that concept upsidedown.  That said, it is appreciated when archies take the extra time to blend features or hide offending lines or backdrops simply because to think of aesthetics in terms of natural or geometric is to short change what looking right is about.  There is no way to separate how a course plays from how it looks.  The two must work together and if they don't it usually shows quite quickly.

Ciao
  

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