[Carl Rogers]

Wouldn't most of you agree that Sawgrass's theatrical finish is great for the TPC and makes the course special?

[Dan Herrmann]

Carl - yep, I sure agree.

I don't know if I'd want to play it every day, but it makes for one heck of a stage for The Players.

[Josh Tarble]

If there is one thing Pete Dye is great at, it's making a fantastic finishing sequence.  Take out his template par 4 with water on one side,there are so many of his courses that end with some mix of risk/reward par 4, risk/reward par 5, demanding par 3, demanding par 4.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom...

As I was thinking about this concept/thread, I recalled your comments on Augusta National and the way it's layout is almost a perfect set up for thrills and exciting golf during the closing stretch of tournament play.  

Would this have been true if the nines hadn't been reversed?    The excitement is generated by the half par par 5's on what is now the back nine.  Mackenzie's routing had those holes as #4 and #6. 

[Mac Plumart]

Mac - I wrote a similar subject area in 2009 in a thread I started called, "The Journey" (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39956.0.html):

I was thinking about GCA, and I came to think of something I'll call "The Journey".

My wife was laid off earlier this year, so we're walking about 90% of the time.  The walk at French Creek is challenging, but nothing horrible (if it's not 90 degrees F).  But it has something very special  -  From the first tee to the 18th green, it's like your favorite hike - it's got views, adventure, a bit of mystery.  But when you're done, you're really glad you took The Journey.

I've never had the good luck to actually play Pine Valley, but I've walked it 3 times, and I get the same feeling - it's a real Journey.  Anther course where a course really felt like a Journey was Highlands Links.  Pacific Dunes sure qualifies.

I think a lot of has to do with hole isolation, but I think the key is that every hole has its own character.  And the occasional peek of what's ahead or what you've already experienced.

Obviously, you can have a great golf course without a Journey type of experience!

Does good golf course architecture include a sense of The Journey, or is it just serendipity when it happens?   

What are other good examples of courses where The Journey is a key factor in the architect's success?[/color]

Dan... Cool stuff.

Let me tweak you comment a bit.  Is there a great course that doesn't have great tempo?

[Mac Plumart]

I don't thinks so.  In fact, I think this is what seperates the best of the best and why some great holes are just wrapped up in a mess of a course and end up being just a collection of golf holes.

Think TPC Sawgrass (as has been mentioned)...walking down 16...and seeing 17 looming.  But wait, once 17 is done...18 awaits.  The sneak peaks of the next holes, the ebb and flow...the anticipation.  Wonderful.

And then there are the senses of wonderment about what awaits over the horizon.  Old Mac has been discussed, and the coolness of the 3rd hole.  But you also come around the bend on 17 to see some cool stuff...some hidden stuff.  Also, 16 at Bandon Dunes has this feeling.

And then there are cool downs and warm ups.  There is the great run of holes to begin NGLA.  Then the cool down and turn and then you pick up speed going into the finish.  The Old Course and The Golf Club do this as well.

This type of stuff makes a course to me rather than simply the golf holes in isolation to me.

[Pete Lavallee]

Is there a great course that doesn't have great tempo?

Yes, Banff Springs comes to mind. When I played there in the official GCA Outing several years ago with Ran and Ben, Ben arranged for us to play one day from the original 1st tee. What a difference! The first hole plays over the Spray River from a high tee and the next few holes ease you into the round. It's truely a fantastic routing which climaxes with a great finishing hole under the Hotel. It was completely ruined when they built a new clubhouse at the old 4th hole; with golfers now starting on what was the 5th hole. The real question is: Is the golf course worse because of this unfortunate renumbering?

[Mac Plumart]

Brian...

Yes!  The entire course.

Pete...

Can you expound on your point?  It seems you were saying it was great prior to the change.  Is it still?

[Tom_Doak]

Mac,

Is it just me or are people focusing way too much on the finish and the end? By tempo you mean the rhythm of the ENTIRE course yes? So an opening stretch can start in any number of ways provided there is counter balancing elsewhere in the round and once any particular theme isn't allowed establish itself for too long a stretch?

Is that what you're talking about? I can see Tom Doak's point about having this idea so much to the forefront of one's mind that you produce something formulaic as an architect - but I guess that is where sometimes guys on GCA overstep the mark in criticising archies for issues that are attributable to the site / other factors outside their control. Ultimately, a golf course's ultimate overall quality is decided by the end user without consideration for what the architect had to deal with. Evaluating a golf course and an architect are two very different things. So Tom D may get upset when folk criticise a routing but almost always they are just comparing such and such a routing negatively compared to the ideal - what an archie had to deal with is their problem not the end user - it's not that they are saying - such and such an archie screwed up in his routing choices as noone but those intimately involved could ever know.

Cheers,
B.

Brian:

I understand that 99% of golfers have to think about the routing of a course in the abstract, because they can't really understand the topo and the choices that were actually made by the architect.  No problem.

My problem is that many of those golfers compare the routing to some stupid IDEAL they have in their heads, instead of just analyzing it for what it actually is.

I don't understand why anyone would think there should be an IDEAL TEMPO to a course.  All you have to do is look closely at the top few courses to realize they are very different in that respect.  Although, the one thing I have found is that if a course has to have a lull somewhere, it is most likely to be forgotten if it is around the turn, as with the loop holes at St. Andrews.  When I am trying to think of holes for eclectic courses where you pick the best first hole, best 2nd, etc., it's always the 9th-12th holes that have the fewest good options.

[Mac Plumart]

Is anyone saying there is a singular ideal tempo for all courses, Tom?

I'm not saying that and I don't read Brian's post that way.

I'm just trying to highlight that there is a heck of a lot more to a golf course than a collection of holes.  And get a discussion about tempos/routings/flows that people like.

What are some course tempos that you like?  Why?

[Tom_Doak]

Is anyone saying there is a singular ideal tempo for all courses, Tom?

I'm not saying that and I don't read Brian's post that way.

I'm just trying to highlight that there is a heck of a lot more to a golf course than a collection of holes.  And get a discussion about tempos/routings/flows that people like.

What are some course tempos that you like?  Why?

Mac:

No one here has said that.  But Brian implied, correctly, that many golfers DO have thoughts on what the ideal tempo is.  They criticize courses for a weak finish, for too hard of a start, for having consecutive par-5's, and on and on.

I agree with Josh Tarble's observation that the holes should come in bunches of two and three and four holes that are harder or easier, instead of switching speeds all the time.  Amen Corner is a corner, it's not just #12 ... although really 10-11-12 is the stretch of hard holes at Augusta.  The changes to #7 and #18 really messed with the tempo there.

I like a course that gives you a chance to hit the driver a lot of times early in the round.  The Old Course does this in spades.  I love Pacific Dunes' routing with only the one par-3 on the front nine, because you get into a rhythm of hitting driver.  I don't like it when you get to a stretch of holes where there are par-3's every other hole, or lay-up holes, so that you don't hit driver twice in a row for a while.  (Notice that at Pacific, even with the four par-3's on the back nine, they fall at 10-11-x-x-14-x-x-17, and #10 is often a driver hole from the lower tee, so the holes are better spaced out.)

Most people like a difficult finish, but in general I prefer a balanced finish, especially for tournament play.  Again, The Old Course does it great ... 16 offers multiple possibilities, 17 is harder than hard, 18 is easy.  If you're tied with the leader in the clubhouse and you have three holes to go, you're not screwed, as you are on so many championship courses.

[John Kirk]

Let's make a couple of assumptions for the sake of argument.

I.  The architect is a naturalist or minimalist, one who tries to utilize the natural features of the land.
II.  The architect then determines the best possible 18 hole loop, with no excessive green to tee walks.

Let's establish two separate scenarios.

A.  The location of the clubhouse is fixed, and cannot be chosen.
B.  The location of the clubhouse can be chosen.

Given this criteria, I conclude:

1.  If the location of the clubhouse can be chosen, then the architect can select "the tempo" as he/she sees fit, given the best routing solution in hand.

2.  If the clubhouse location is fixed, then the best loop must accommodate this restriction, so the best solution may be compromised.

3.  If the clubhouse location is fixed, and the architect can retain 16 or 17 holes in the "best possible 18 hole loop", then the first or last holes are most likely to be compromised, and therefore most problematic in terms of "flow" or "tempo".

Does that make sense?

By the way, Tom, I appreciate your last comment on this thread.  That was very informative, and inspired me to try to prolong the discussion.

[Josh Tarble]

I really like this topic as I think routing/tempo is one of the most undervalued criteria when judging a course.  In my opinion, a tighter routing also helps the overall flow of the course.  I've found that short green to tee walks help when making a course flow together, even more so when the holes are good.

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - nice post. To me it's a lot about "willingness".  As a quote I like to use has it: "what a man sees and hears has a lot to do with where he is standing, but it has even more to do with the kind of man he is". In other words, if the architect is the "kind of man" who is willing to have and is comfortable with having a long stretch of par 4s broken up by back to back par 5s and followed by a series of par 3s (or whatever the sequence), he will be the type of architect who does in fact "see" this pattern/routing/tempo already present there in the land itself.  Judging from the majority of courses that i play (again, most of them modern), few designers are willing to see this kind of tempo -- a tempo I would appreciate if for no other reason than because it is different from the norm, and thus is experienced less predicatably.

Peter

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...thanks for that post.  I've been thinking about it since you wrote it.  Lots of good stuff there.  One I've reached a conclusion on is that I have become aware that I am not really in favor of a gentle handshake on the first tee as much as I want to be able to hit driver and not fear going OB.  I love challenging green sites and green side bunkers...but I don't want to lose a ball on the first swing.  I love your concept of allowing golfers to warm up with driver early in the round.  Perhaps this establishes a more welcoming and loose tempo, rather than one that evokes massive pucker factor and nervousness.

Peter...in your mind would the tempo of a string of par 4's be the same if they are a string of true par 4's or long par 4's, short par 4's, uphill down hill,etc?  I guess wha I'm saying is that I believe an architect can create different rhythms all with par 4 baselines, if they tweak the nature of the holes challenges.

Josh...I agree with you 100%.  I think you can create different tempos and vibes with length of green to tee walks, visibility or seclusion among different holes, and the inclusion of the courses surrounds (oceans, hills, mountains, trees, distant landmarks,etc).  In fact, I think these non-golf features help define each course from others.  And these surrounds can be used purposefully to evoke certain feelings and emotions by highly skilled architects.

John...interesting points.  I'd have to add that the amount of land greatly impacts these compromises.  I have to believe a course like Sand Hills could have been constructed with varying tempos regardless of starter shacks/clubhouses due to the vast amount of available golfing land.  Where a neighborhood course would restrict an architect a great deal more, with the same restrictions.

[Ben Sims]

John,

Some nice assumptions.  Fixed variables within the routing equation are likely the number one overlooked aspect of routing a golf course by those that don't route golf courses.  Clubhouse location, permitting/land restraints, sensitive areas, these are all things that most folks probably forget when they talk about lofty concepts like tempo and crescendo. 

Surprise surprise, I must agree with Tom on his post #35.  Going further, fixing a variable--such as a clubhouse or practice area--is going to affect golf holes.  So with these ideas in mind, that's why believing in ideals about where hard holes should fall, openers should be easy, yada yada yada is just pure bunk. 

I'm going to tie this in with par.  People associate tempo/routing quality with par far too often.  I would be much more impressed if a course listed only yardages and handicaps on their scorecards with no par.  If par is forgotten, would the routings and tempo of places like Cypress and Pac Dunes be even more lauded?  Likely.  Tempo has more to do with the relative difficulty of the shots you face, the intimacy or openness of that area of the golf course, and the seamlessness of the change from hard to easy and intimate to open. 

[Mac Plumart]

I'm confused, Ben. You speak as if you have golf course routing experience.  I didn't think you had done that.  Have you?  

[Tom_Doak]

Let's make a couple of assumptions for the sake of argument.

I.  The architect is a naturalist or minimalist, one who tries to utilize the natural features of the land.
II.  The architect then determines the best possible 18 hole loop, with no excessive green to tee walks.

Let's establish two separate scenarios.

A.  The location of the clubhouse is fixed, and cannot be chosen.
B.  The location of the clubhouse can be chosen.

Given this criteria, I conclude:

1.  If the location of the clubhouse can be chosen, then the architect can select "the tempo" as he/she sees fit, given the best routing solution in hand.

2.  If the clubhouse location is fixed, then the best loop must accommodate this restriction, so the best solution may be compromised.

3.  If the clubhouse location is fixed, and the architect can retain 16 or 17 holes in the "best possible 18 hole loop", then the first or last holes are most likely to be compromised, and therefore most problematic in terms of "flow" or "tempo".

Does that make sense?

John:

All well reasoned.  We've often done routings with two or three different possible sequences labeled ... sometimes for different clubhouse sites.  You'll see three different ones for a preliminary routing for Pacific Dunes, whenever I finally get my book about it finished.  In addition to your third point above, if the owner wants returning nines to his fixed clubhouse, it is very likely that any ideals about tempo will have to be thrown out the window.  That's one reason I think it's so important NOT to have this as a criteria, if you can wiggle out of it.

[Tom_Doak]

Judging from the majority of courses that i play (again, most of them modern), few designers are willing to see this kind of tempo -- a tempo I would appreciate if for no other reason than because it is different from the norm, and thus is experienced less predicatably.

Peter - that last line of yours is one of the keys.  What I desire most of all from a golf course routing is not to be able to predict what's coming next.  That's why the many architects who try to copy the alternating pattern of the front nine at Augusta -- 454 343 454 -- drive me crazy, and it's also why the par-72 edicts from Asian clients have it so wrong, because it's so easy to guess what's next.  Maybe they really like it that way.

[Mike_Young]

I may be a little off here but I think Pete Dye had a tempo he often tried to use in his finishing holes in order to invoke specific shots under pressure that could be played by all types of players.  So often I have seen his courses with a 16th hole which is a reachable but risky par 5 with a green moving left to right followed by a 17th  island green and a 18th  long right to left cape hole with a green moving right to left.  Can this be considered "tempo"...that series of shots has proven to be very good under pressure...JMO

[Tom_Doak]

I may be a little off here but I think Pete Dye had a tempo he often tried to use in his finishing holes in order to invoke specific shots under pressure that could be played by all types of players.  So often I have seen his courses with a 16th hole which is a reachable but risky par 5 with a green moving left to right followed by a 17th  island green and a 18th  long right to left cape hole with a green moving right to left.  Can this be considered "tempo"...that series of shots has proven to be very good under pressure...JMO

Mike:

That was Pete's version of the ideal finish.  I agree that he built many excellent courses that way, but after a while it started to bother me that he used it so often ... it's one of the reasons I vowed not to have an ideal for what the finishing holes should be.

[Mike_Young]

I may be a little off here but I think Pete Dye had a tempo he often tried to use in his finishing holes in order to invoke specific shots under pressure that could be played by all types of players.  So often I have seen his courses with a 16th hole which is a reachable but risky par 5 with a green moving left to right followed by a 17th  island green and a 18th  long right to left cape hole with a green moving right to left.  Can this be considered "tempo"...that series of shots has proven to be very good under pressure...JMO

Mike:

That was Pete's version of the ideal finish.  I agree that he built many excellent courses that way, but after a while it started to bother me that he used it so often ... it's one of the reasons I vowed not to have an ideal for what the finishing holes should be.

Tom,
While I tend agree with you regarding not having an ideal, I think that series of shots ,in medal play ,for a top level player under pressure is as good a series of shots as anyone has ever developed.  Golf doesn't need that on most courses but it works when needed.  Cheers.

[Ben Sims]

I'm confused, Ben. You speak as if you have golf course routing experience.  I didn't think you had done that.  Have you?  

Mac,

I doubt you're confused my friend.   Obviously routing golf courses isn't my means of making a living.  But observation and study has a curious way of forming opinions.  And what you read above is mine on the topic of tempo.  I think tempo--particularly with regard to how a golf course starts or finishes--is highly subjective and often overlooks what restraints and requests a client puts on an architect.  It's no coincidence that many golf courses we love are on great sites where an architect had near unfettered access to a tremendous piece of land.

Case in point.  I walked Friars Head with some friends early in the summer and spent a few minutes defending the first hole's difficulty.  I've also done the same when folks say that one of the few weaknesses at ANGC is its difficult start.  I think it is hard to judge a routing based on preconceived notions about where certain holes fall in a routing. 

[hhuffines]

I can't speak for Pete but Banff was great both ways!  Of all the courses I've played it really offers you a "journey.". Great holes, great scenary, mountains, a river, wild animals, and that crazy finisher along the road.  The front nine at Royal Co. Down was quite a journey as well...

[Mac Plumart]

Hart...I can't wait to play both those courses.  They sound great.

Tom (and Ben)...again this preconceived notion of a one size fits all ideal tempo is being mentioned.  As I said before, and am saying again, I don't see anyone mentioning that. The only exceptions are Mike Young's recent comment regarding Pete Dye's finish and Tom Doak comments against this concept ( which no one is advocating). .

Rather it seems most people are mentioning neat tempos, unique tempos, and how much people like these off the beaten path ones. In fact, in my comment to Josh I mentioned how important it is to work in each sites unique features.


Tom...when you do multiple routings for one site, do you see drastically different courses developing or are they similar in nature?  If similar, is this due to client mandate or site specific issues or both?

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