[Mike_Young]

I spent almost a week at the Ryder Cup a few weeks ago and in during that time listened to a lot of various industry guys discuss the golf business and where it's headed?  Anyone have any idea of what is missing?  I knew it was an item that was decreasing and for good reason but had no idea it was at that point.

[Dan Byrnes]

I'll start the guessing a PGA professional?

Dan

[Mac Plumart]

Caddies?

Cart girls?

Profitability?

Island greens?

[Mike_Young]

I'll start the guessing a PGA professional?

Dan

good guess....
Yep .  Less than 6000 golf courses now have a PGA pro.  28000 members of an organization that has no skin in the game and less and less jobs. 

[Dan Byrnes]

I hesitated to guess that as its still very common in my area, upstate NY, but figured less so in other areas.

Dan

[Bill_McBride]

I was going to say members.

Or maybe budget surpluses. 

[Matthew Sander]

Probably not included in this number, is the situation where one pro serves several clubs or courses. In these cases, it would seem the primary function of the pro is instruction, while "civilian" staff take care of the operations.  

Obviously this decreases the level of accessibility that members or daily fee players have with the pro. A couple of questions - are any of you members or regulars at clubs/courses where this is the setup? If so, do you or any others at the club/course feel that service or instruction suffers as a result? Or is it not a concern whatsoever?

[Pat Burke]

I am a third generation professional.  My dad was a two term PGA section president, and very active
in all the sections he was a member of.
Years ago, the PGA, started moving towards more education in the "business" of golf for its members.
There was a push towards management as bottom line numbers became more and more the goal of a club.
In making the PGA members more versatile as managers, it was supposed to enhance the profile of pros and open
more management opportunities.
In my biased opinion, the PGA forgot one thing....GOLF.  As a kid growing up in New Jersey,
there was a lot of pride in having a head pro who played well, could teach, and was able to effectively help members
have a great day at the club.
In many cases, being a good player or teacher now, means you are spending too much time on your game or the range.  Not spending
enough time answering emails, completing monthly P&Ls, and making sure that the outside tournaments are booked.
Of course, as an association, the pGA has done a great job of charging a ton for kids to pass the training program,
all while making poverty wages waiting for the dream job to come.  Of course those jobs are slowly disappearing, just send in your dues.

[Keith Doleshel]

Pat,
I'm glad that you mentioned the large sums of money that the PGA charges the young people who would be the future of the PGA.  I have been in the golf business for the past five and a half years, and have had little desire to join the PGA program.  The amount of money it takes to chase the dream while making hardly any money, for a dwindling number of jobs, makes it tough to want to join.  I work at a club out in California with hardly any PGA influence.  Our Director of Golf isn't PGA, our shop staff has no class A professionals, and I don't believe the general public really cares one way or the other.  They want quality customer service, a good relationship with the staff, and a quality golf course.  We do have instructors who are PGA members, but they only teach.

It is interesting that the PGA became so business oriented, as now so many GMs at clubs go throught the Club Management program.  In many cases, managers at clubs don't even have golf experience as PGA members.  I know many PGA professionals who are role models for the game, active in many golf programs from junior level on up, and I have nothing against the organization in the truest sense.  I wish they gave people like myself more of a reason to become a part of their future.  I'm sure you understand where I am coming from.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Here in the UK most clubs do have a PGA pro who typically is paid a retainer by the club and then makes the bulk of his living from running his shop and from giving lessons.

This traditional model is getting squeezed, however. Equipment sales are moving to large discount stores and online retailers. Most golfers will unashamedly seek the pro's advice, even borrow his demo driver, and then save £30 by buying the thing on the internet.

Only a minority of golfers ever take lessons. How often do I hear a 16 handicapper proudly boast that he's 'never had a lesson in his life'?! I am seeing those that do seek professional tuition more often than not going to specialist PGA coaches working out of driving ranges rather than their club pro. I count myself among these.

Many club pros now seem to eek a living from selling crested clothing, the odd bit of equipment, and lots of Mars Bars. Does anyone really have to spend the time and money qualifying with the PGA to be able to do this?

Saddest of all, I have never met a PGA pro who ever plays much golf!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

At both the clubs of which I am a member there is an unwritten expectation that members will support their professional and, indeed, the caterers. Both professionals are required to sit on various club committees and also to coach club teams as well as run their shop and teach. At Conwy, Peter Lees (professional there for 40+ years) coaches juniors (who don't have to be club members) on a Saturday morning free of charge. At Wilmslow, Matthew Gillingham and his assistants certainly play in local tournaments and often accompany members when they are playing at some prestigious course such as Hoylake or Lytham. Matthew is a recent appointment (ex Gleneagles) and he has made a very positive influence on the club. One of his conditions of appointment was that the practice ground should be run as a range and that he would be built an indoor teaching facility. The number of lessons he is giving is many times greater than those given by his predecessor and the various practice facilities have never seen such use. In the past members preferred to go to the local driving range which is under cover and you don't have to retrieve your balls. Its teaching area was also under cover and very popular.

[David Davis]

This is interesting to read, I had no idea this was an issue in the US as I've always been quite impressed with the set up, teaching facilities and shops for the most part at the clubs I've visited in the US. Granted many have been private clubs but in my impression these PGA Pros had quite solid little businesses and I always have had the impression that they not only knew everyone at these clubs but were highly supported as well. I'm very surprised to read this is not the case.

Here in The Netherlands the PGA is IMO extremely unprofessional, they also have a year program that is relatively expensive but it seems like they will take anyone that wants to join. I would say there is a small handful of good pros in this country but not more than that. I know many of them, in terms of players I can only think of a couple that can play around par or better. Incidentally these guys can't break 80 at my course either.

With very few exceptions the pros do not run the shops at clubs in NL. Taking away part of their revenue streams I'm sure but here too prices have fallen under pressure due to the larger internet providers many of which come from the UK.

This leaves teaching as the sole revenue generator and few are good enough to make this work and many just live on their retainer which amounts to a salary of roughly $2500 - 3000 a month tops.

I'm extremely lucky as my coach and good friend, who is Irish and officially retired, is known as the swing guru for this country. He does amazing work, helping the top European Tour players from NL and pretty much all the best upcoming players with a few exceptions....oh and he helps me too. Clearly I don't belong in this group, which is why I consider myself lucky.

[James Bennett]

Saddest of all, I have never met a PGA pro who ever plays much golf!

That is the sad part.  I expect if they have another employment opportunity, then they move away from golf. 

The 'shop' is expected by members to be open from very early in the morning before the first member plays (before 7am) till late in the afternoon when the last competitor finishes and wants to hand his card in.

The 'shop' is also expected to be manned at all times, despite tea breaks, nature breaks, lunch and the like.  So, if you have a lesson to give, you then need someone else to man the 'shop' - not that they will take much money, as you wouldn not want to compete with the golf club's revenue stream on certain possible line items.

My club still has the pro from nearly 10 years ago, and his predecessor was there for 10years (I was on the panel for both of them), and the predecessor to them (a legend, a french Open winner and a great creator of interesting greens complexes) was there for 10 years as well.  I recognise that their contribution to the club is important (well, critical actually) but that it involves long hours. Somehow, they have survived.

James B

[Mike_Young]

I am a third generation professional.  My dad was a two term PGA section president, and very active
in all the sections he was a member of.
Years ago, the PGA, started moving towards more education in the "business" of golf for its members.
There was a push towards management as bottom line numbers became more and more the goal of a club.
In making the PGA members more versatile as managers, it was supposed to enhance the profile of pros and open
more management opportunities.
In my biased opinion, the PGA forgot one thing....GOLF.  As a kid growing up in New Jersey,
there was a lot of pride in having a head pro who played well, could teach, and was able to effectively help members
have a great day at the club.
In many cases, being a good player or teacher now, means you are spending too much time on your game or the range.  Not spending
enough time answering emails, completing monthly P&Ls, and making sure that the outside tournaments are booked.
Of course, as an association, the pGA has done a great job of charging a ton for kids to pass the training program,
all while making poverty wages waiting for the dream job to come.  Of course those jobs are slowly disappearing, just send in your dues.

Pat says it best above.  The PGA is just one of the associations that has attached itself to the sport and become a business.  I wayched the politics of it for a week at Medinah.  Seven guys run for secretary and after that one just waits until he becomes president.  Maybe Pat knows all the bennies of being president , both immediate and lifetime.  I know there is a car in there somewhere along with many other things. 
But IMHO, and obviously many more, they lost their way somewhere.  The old pro is rare.  Think about this:  the guys with the skin in the game are either owners or members and an association was created to serve employees of these two groups.  Yet today that association ( and it's not the only one) has taken a life of it's own where it makes over 40 million on one golf tournament.  I often think all of it's intentions are to grow itself not the members.  I have no problem with good PGA pros but that is secondary to being a good people person and having a knack for the business.  Something is missing in so many cases.  I would wager there are not 2500 good career jobs in the golf professional business in the US.  A place like Myrtle Beach is down to around 35 PGA members for over 80 courses.  And vendors such as golf car companies, club companies end up spending millions to these associations instead of towards the end users.  Oh well....

[Tony Ristola]

I am a third generation professional.  My dad was a two term PGA section president, and very active
in all the sections he was a member of.
Years ago, the PGA, started moving towards more education in the "business" of golf for its members.
There was a push towards management as bottom line numbers became more and more the goal of a club.
In making the PGA members more versatile as managers, it was supposed to enhance the profile of pros and open
more management opportunities.
In my biased opinion, the PGA forgot one thing....GOLF.  As a kid growing up in New Jersey,
there was a lot of pride in having a head pro who played well, could teach, and was able to effectively help members
have a great day at the club.
In many cases, being a good player or teacher now, means you are spending too much time on your game or the range.  Not spending
enough time answering emails, completing monthly P&Ls, and making sure that the outside tournaments are booked.
Of course, as an association, the pGA has done a great job of charging a ton for kids to pass the training program,
all while making poverty wages waiting for the dream job to come.  Of course those jobs are slowly disappearing, just send in your dues.

Amen.

[Mike Sweeney]

I'll start the guessing a PGA professional?

Dan

good guess....
Yep .  Less than 6000 golf courses now have a PGA pro.  28000 members of an organization that has no skin in the game and less and less jobs. 

But which are better run, with or without PGA pro?

I personally would rather be in a hospital run by a doctor:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/07/10/do-doctors-make-the-best-hospital-administrators/

[Mike_Young]

I'll start the guessing a PGA professional?

Dan

good guess....
Yep .  Less than 6000 golf courses now have a PGA pro.  28000 members of an organization that has no skin in the game and less and less jobs. 

But which are better run, with or without PGA pro?

I personally would rather be in a hospital run by a doctor:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/07/10/do-doctors-make-the-best-hospital-administrators/

Mike,
There are plenty of good pros out there who are not PGA members just as there are architects who are not ASGCA or supts who are not GCSAA.  The association does not make the member.  NOW there are good PGA pros and if a guy comes along that can do the job and happens to be a PGA pro on top of that then great.  Let me ask you this would you rather have a golf lesson from a PGA pro or just a teacher? 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am a third generation professional.  My dad was a two term PGA section president, and very active
in all the sections he was a member of.
Years ago, the PGA, started moving towards more education in the "business" of golf for its members.
There was a push towards management as bottom line numbers became more and more the goal of a club.
In making the PGA members more versatile as managers, it was supposed to enhance the profile of pros and open
more management opportunities.
In my biased opinion, the PGA forgot one thing....GOLF.  As a kid growing up in New Jersey,
there was a lot of pride in having a head pro who played well, could teach, and was able to effectively help members
have a great day at the club.
In many cases, being a good player or teacher now, means you are spending too much time on your game or the range.  Not spending
enough time answering emails, completing monthly P&Ls, and making sure that the outside tournaments are booked.
Of course, as an association, the pGA has done a great job of charging a ton for kids to pass the training program,
all while making poverty wages waiting for the dream job to come.  Of course those jobs are slowly disappearing, just send in your dues.

I have noticed that fewer pros play in pro-ams.  In fact I had to research to see if there still were pro-ams in the Middle Atlantic PGA.  Twenty years ago pros would ask members to play, which I did.  I haven't heard about any at my clubs for years.  I think you're right that playing isn't valued by members as much anymore. 

[Mike_Trenham]

The Trenham theory is that when the golf professional owed the shop and paid the staff under the old model playing in events or with members was the choice of the golf professional.  Now they are micromanaged by the board of directors and general managers so they want you in view at all times.  In the old days if he chose to play rather than closely manage the shop and staff it was his choice of how to manage his business.

Let's be real it takes a daily effort to be really good at this game for most mortals.  My father who was/is an old school pro would not come home unless he had hit 50 shots of some type on a given day.  He never told his family this until he had retired from his six/seven day a week position.  We ate a lot of late dinners.

[Joel Zuckerman]

With all the gloom and doom in the business of being a golf professional, I find it interesting that there are approximately 2800 young men and women currently enrolled in PGM programs at 20 schools across the nation.

[Jon Wiggett]

Let me ask you this would you rather have a golf lesson from a PGA pro or just a teacher? 

Here in the UK it would be a PGA for me. Firstly he has had the training and therefor interest and commitment to qualify showing a love of the game and not just in it for the money. Secondly, you know he is insured should anything go wrong.

I do however fear it may go the same way here as in the USA

Jon

[Jerry Kluger]

My caddie at Bandon was a Class A club professional and he told me he made more money with less hassle toting a bag than working at a country club.

I used to remember club pros spending a lot of time with members but more and more they are sitting in their shop waiting for business.  It is my opinion that a club pro needs to market himself to the members and by that I mean he should walk out to the range and watch the members warming up and give them some pointers and perhaps suggest what they could do at a lesson. He could also hand the member a club and suggest that he try it and see how he likes it.  The manufacturers have tried to help themselves and the pros by having demo days, etc., where members can get fit for clubs and see how they will help them.  I haven't found much of a savings by purchasing new equipment from golf chains, etc., so I will support the pro if he makes an effort to work with me. 

[jeffwarne]

My caddie at Bandon was a Class A club professional and he told me he made more money with less hassle toting a bag than working at a country club.

 

Imagine that!
a job has hassles?

I'm guessing every successful member of this board has/had a job with "hassles"
That's why they pay you/us money.

And Pat's post says it best.
When the PGA put its' emphasis on business and management, it made everyone who followed that track replaceable.
Sadly , many people get into the PGA "program" with no passion or ability for the game at all.
There are jobs for pros who can play, teach, fit and fix clubs, grow junior golf programs, and make members want to be at the club
Any professional who neglects his game and its' roots puts himself at peril of being replaced by a manager from Applebees or Banana Republic, for a lot less money......

[Bob_Huntley]

I think you will find that the club Professional in the golfing Meccas of California no longer own the shops.
Merchandise and Cart Fees go to the club.

Bob

[Ben Sims]

In my own line of work, one of the popular topics has become, "when will the Air Force have its first Chief of Staff that isn't a pilot?" 15-20% of AF officers are pilots, but 64% of four-star generals are pilots. Including enlisted, less than 3% of the AF are pilots.  The other shoe will drop at some point.

It's the same in EVERY organization around the world.  Shrewd managers, leaders with vision and the ability to affect positive change will rise sooner or later.  In my opinion, it's good that many golf courses have moved away from the PGA pro.  I don't think a course/club's pro's ability to play golf has much to do with the success of the course/club and I also don't think the PGA student programs can compete with the best managerial/business programs. 

In the highly dynamic environment with razor thin margins that is our economic and business future, the AF will have to own up and have leaders that are chosen despite their previous affiliations.  Golf is already getting there with the de-emphasis of the PGA pro. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()