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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
How soon after its inception...
« on: October 09, 2012, 05:49:54 PM »
....can a golf course be called great?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2012, 07:09:07 PM »
Some golf courses are great even before they open.

It is really just a question of how long it takes people to recognize it and to be confident in stating it.  Some people are much faster than others ... I had Sand Hills down as a great course before it was open. 

If that takes ten years for a new course, it isn't because the course is changing in that time.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 07:21:01 PM »
many courses seem to be "great" until they actually open!  :)
..and even then they can be great to some while not-so-great to others.  and that's a good thing, isn't it?
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2012, 08:12:17 PM »
A course can be great just as soon as it opens.

But does the club have the proper infrastructure in place to stand the test of time?  To me, that is the question.  The actual golf course is only one of the players on the stage.  Ownership, members, staff, maintenance...do they all embrace the same goals?  Did they have the correct financial foundation built prior to opening?  Did the architect, and his team, build a course that will stand the test of time?  Do the owners/members understand, and accept, the architect's vision?  I could go on, but I'll stop as I think you all get the point.

"Will it live?"  Perhaps when that is answered, your question can be answered, Mark.  It is great if the course is good enough and we know that it will survive long-term.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 06:15:44 AM »
"Will it live?"  Perhaps when that is answered, your question can be answered, Mark.  It is great if the course is good enough and we know that it will survive long-term.

Mac:

So, was Lido not a great course?

Or do you have this wrong?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 07:29:26 AM »
It would appear the course was certainly good enough, but all the other important components were flawed.  And, therefore, not a single person on this site has any idea how the course truly played.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 07:41:40 AM »
I had Sand Hills down as a great course before it was open.  

So, was Lido not a great course?

I am not sure which of these is more impressive, recognising Sand Hills as great before it was playable or Lido as great 60 years after it was playable.   :P

Seriously though, great courses are at the very pointy end and surely it would be presumptuous to declare a course great without it being subjected to competitive play over a decent period of time.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 07:43:54 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 07:55:44 AM »
I had Sand Hills down as a great course before it was open.  

So, was Lido not a great course?

I am not sure which of these is more impressive, recognising Sand Hills as great before it was playable or Lido as great 60 years after it was playable.   :P

Seriously though, great courses are at the very pointy end and surely it would be presumptuous to declare a course great without it being subjected to competitive play over a decent period of time.

David,
You bring up another point and a good one.  Does competitive play matter that much in making a course a great one?  AND if it does then would we not need to consider match vs stroke play.  IMHO there are some great courses out there that would be very interesting courses to watch good players in match play yet they would shoot lights out in stroke.  JMO.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 08:25:00 AM »
David,
You bring up another point and a good one.  Does competitive play matter that much in making a course a great one?  AND if it does then would we not need to consider match vs stroke play.  IMHO there are some great courses out there that would be very interesting courses to watch good players in match play yet they would shoot lights out in stroke.  JMO.


Mike,

Just to clarify, by competitive play, I do not necessarily mean between professional or highly competent golfers.  

But when I think about the great golf courses two things stand out.  1. They have extreme features - extreme hazards and extreme contours, no-go areas around the greens. You can not properly assess how good these features are unless you are playing competetively - unless the game matters.  If  you are not playing competiive golf you take driver off every tee, you shoot at every pin, and if you end up in trouble you don't feel the hurt.  You miss out on the architecture.  

And 2. The great golf courses have balance.  The extreme features are balanced out by subtleties throughout the course.  

Unless you play the course, talk about the course with others who have played it, and play it so that it matters, you miss out on a lot.  And probably miss out most on being abe to tell a very good course from a great one.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2012, 09:39:32 AM »
Sure puts a ding on the maintenance meld if a course can be considered great before it's open (grown in)

Sure it can have the potential, but, isn't "great" reserved for the very few?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How soon after its inception...
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 08:38:26 AM »
I concur with Mac and Adam. A course can gave the "potential" for greatness prior to opening, or even when open, but only a sustained combination of elements can ensure it maintains that level of specialness. There is also the question of is the course great or the entire experience great? To me, while the ground doesn't have a voice, it can stand on its own merit, though the ENTIRE presentation of the facility is really what elevates it to the highest clutch of superb plays.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

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