[David Davis]

Yesterday I played Chamber's Bay for the second time. The last time I'd played was in 2008 while visiting my parents. It was a really perfect weather day, there was about a 2 club wind and according to the employees in the opposite direction to the normal wind so that effects my opinion slightly. I was amazed that the course was not playing hard and fast considering all the lack of rain, it was also surprisingly green. Greens were rolling very slow, maybe 8 on the stimp max but they were fairly hard and quite inconsistent.

When I arrived at the first tee the 3 playing companions had decided they were going to play the US Open tees, at least as far back as they would let you. Mind you a few of the farthest back tees were closed. Nevertheless, the first hole was 498 yd par 4 into the wind from the right. The course was set up at 7500 + yds. In my opinion ridiculous. Although some of you may argue I'm just not good enough to play that and I'd agree with you. I managed a semi decent score of 84 and have certainly had worse rounds however I completely missed out on the fun factor, sure I enjoyed being out there on a perfect day but I missed more short par 4's and variation.

Here's an indication:

Hole

1 - 498 yds par 4 (into wind from right) Driver, 3 wood - short rolled off the green left down the hill.
5 - 490 yds par 4 (into wind from right) Driver, rescue
6 - 447 yds par 4  (wind behind) Driver, 8 iron
7 - 508 yds par 4 (this was to a temp green but still long uphill)
11 - 500 yds par 4 (into the wind) Driver, 3 wood.
14 - 521 yds par 4 (into the wind) Driver, 3 wood.

Two of the par 5's were also over 600 yds.

Anyway, clearly I was on the wrong tees, plus the fact that I was the only guy in the group to break 100, although also the only one to not make a birdie.

I will mention that there are quite a few fun and spectacular holes like #5's drive withe huge elevation change, #9 the long par 3 (227 yds) into the wind off the right with a huge elevation change. The short par 4 12th which played 300 yds uphill into the wind. #14 was a quite spectacular risk reward setup, (only playing nearly straight into the wind) but a cut off as much as you can chew type of hole with a huge elevation change and the finish was also fairly strong.

All in all I'd have to say that Chamber's was perhaps my least favorite course on this trip: Bandon Dunes (all courses), Pumpkin ridge, The Reserve, Astoria Golf & Country Club and Sahalee.

I'm curious what you guys think of it? Those of you who have played it and which tees you played off? It's a bit of a shame, I would really rather played the back tees (7100 yds) as opposed to the pro tees.

[Stephen Davis]

David,

It sounds like a brutal day from those tees. I have played it from each of the normal mens tees (what would traditionally be black, blue and white) and I have loved it from each of those tees. The 400 yards is huge though. You are hitting long irons or woods into every green, including the par 3s, and that just gets tiring. I really love Chambers Bay, and think 16 is a really great hole, but it would be easy to not love it if was playing from that kind of length.

[Matthew Essig]

I believe playing from (almost) the tips would make it less enjoyable. If you hit a 3 wood short of the 1st green even with the wind, then, IMHO, you were playing the wrong tees. How close did you get to the 12th? Because if can't get fairly close than you chose the wrong tees. I drive the ball 250, so I typically play the Sand tees, which is 265 to the middle of the 12th. But on occasion, I play from the White tees because I find that I  have more choices in going for the par 5's and it allows me to have easier shots into the long par 4's of 1 and 7. Almost every time that you move forward a tee, it makes the round more enjoyable.

If you and your group (who shot over 100) had moved up a tee, do you think the course's impression would be better?

To answer the title, it is both (depends on the tee you play).

[David Davis]

Matthew,

I think it's fun but not spectacular, last time I played one tee forward which was fine but the wind was different. I'm not that long, if I lose the drive to the right I don't dare say exactly, maybe I hit it around 250 if I do that. On the first hole I hit my tee shot into the first bunker on the right and hit a 3 wood out of that bunker pin high but it rolled down the hill on the left. (tee shot was pretty bad). However 12 was a good tee shot I hit the ball into the wind all the way up to the very top and thought I had made the green but we watched the ball roll back about 15 ft. although I was still up at the very top and could see the back left pin in full view for my approach and could of hit either 8 iron or putter, I chose 8 iron. Sadly rolled up an 8 iron and walked off with a par.

Stephen, what would you say? We played together and you saw some typical drives of mine. Some times they go quite long but I'm not sure really how long that is. I think in general we are pretty close, how far do you hit your drive?

[Matthew Essig]

Well, it sounds to me like you were playing the right tees, I guess. The first hole is extremely difficult; its why, during the US am, the hole was a 530 yard par 5 for a couple days.

How far back was the pin on 12? The local knowledge is to play off the green and have the ball roll back, instead of trying to roll it up to the hole.

Did you use a caddy? They say using a caddy helps a lot, so when playing from that far back, it would alleviate the struggle.

Do you feel the lack of firm and fast conditions caused the course to play longer and harder?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Playing the appropriate tees isn't just a length consideration.

If you play tees that are too far back, you also lose out on the strategy, as the hazards that are in play for the pros are out of your reach. What may be an interesting course off the middle tees, becomes a bore off the back tees.

At my home course, where the back tees are about 7150 yds, I don't have to worry about placing my drives; I just play driver all the time. The total length isn't a big issue, it's the removal of all the decision making on the tee that I miss out on. I prefer to play the 6550 yds tees, as I then have to consider hazards that are in my range. This means I take 3W at least 3-4 times off the tee and maybe a 3 iron/hybrid on another. That's what makes a course interesting to me.

We play a competition off the ladies tees once a year and it's great fun. You have to think carefully on each tee and it's so refreshing.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

this is part of a sad trend in golf at the moment. With the exception of the 6th all the other holes are really par 5s. I have said this before on here that for some reason the USGA and some courses think that by calling a par5 a par 4 they make the course play harder. The really sad thing is that many golfers believe it.

Did you know that this years US Open course was only half a shot harder than the Scottish Open course yet one is seen as been really tough and the other derided as been to easy.

Jon

[David_Elvins]

Since when has needing Driver and 3 wood to reach the green on a long par 4 into a 2 club wind been a slog. 

In 30 years of playing golf I have always considered it unlikely that I would get home in 2 on long par 4s playing into the wind. 

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Hallo David,

Do you directly relate your fun factor to your score?
Or do you just prefer mid and short irons into greens rather than 3-woods?

To put your score into perspective you should take into consideration the Course Rating which would give you the “net” score. At Chamber Bay the Course Rating is 76.6 from the Pro Tees making your 84 look much better.

If you prefer shorter approaches then you’ll find your“fun factor” at the shorter Tees.

One of my golfing buddies that hits it a mile prefers the shorter tees so he can claim birdies. The Course Rating of his choice of Tees will readjust his score negatively at the end of the round, however he can still claim he made a bunch of birdies!!! Well if it’s fun for him?

Here’s an extract I found on the Internet of the Chambers Bay Course Ratings

The Washington State Golf Association (WSGA) has updated its course and slope ratings for Chambers Bay, the golf course in University Place, Wash. that will host the 2010 U.S. Amateur and 2015 U.S. Open.

The revised ratings were needed after the addition of new tees on hole Nos. 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 15 and 17; the option of playing the first hole from the new championship tee on the 10th; the option of utilizing two different greens on the fifth hole; and the renovation of the fourth green.

The championship tees at Chambers Bay will play to two combinations of yardages and ratings. The first combination measures at 7,591 yards with a USGA Course Rating of 76.0 and a Slope of 135. The second combination at 7,688 yards has a rating/Slope of 76.6/137. Although par is listed at 72, the USGA has indicated it will most likely alter the par on a few of the holes during the two championships, specifically on holes 1, 13 and 18.

[William_G]

I like Chamber's Bay! But, it is a hike.

It was playing firm and fast 1 week ago...so much so that the group ahead of us played ping pong on greens with their chips for typical "muni" entertainment and slow play.

Played the navy tees which is just right for me...the greens are still growing in as fescue just grow so slowly.

The best thing about the course is it's excellent playability year round due to the sand base, while most coures in the Pacific Northwest can get muddy.

All and all a great muni!

[Bill_Yates]

Quoting Alice Dye - "Who really wants to play two woods and a wedge to every hole?"

[Garland Bayley]

Quoting Alice Dye - "Who really wants to play two woods and a wedge to every hole?"

Old Tom Morris, who originated the quote "Hit it Alice, hit it!"

[David Davis]

John,

Thanks for your comment. Fun factor certainly doesn't have anything to do with hitting short irons into holes, if it did then I might of had the round of my life, chipping 15-30 yard uphill chips or rolling 8 irons into greens from the same distance. I must say I do like variation, I like to finish and think wow, I can remember all the holes and I like to stand at the tee and really have to think carefully about which club and what strategy to take.

I don't have to shoot a low score in order to have fun, although that doesn't mean it's not fun to shoot a low score. When I'm traveling and playing courses I don't expect to score well as I don't know the courses and don't consider myself an expert at course management yet but I'm trying to pay more attention to this all the time.

To be fair, let me give you a comparison, A few weeks ago the KLM Open was played at a club near my home which I know very well. It has 4 par 4's longer than 400 meters. I've asked several of the European Tour guys and heard several of them comment that they thought it played very long in anything but the hardest conditions. Some think those holes are a bit too long. Chambers Bay has 6 par 4's over 400 meters. A couple of these are playing steep uphill. This is favoring bombers IMO. Nothing wrong with that but it makes for kind of boring golf. The bunkers or waste areas are kind of hard to get a penalizing lie in. I did hit way more than I would of liked to off the tee which would suggest they are placed effectively. I hit a couple 3 woods and a couple rescue clubs out of bunkers. One 6 iron on the 18th.

I'm also comparing my experience to true links golf which is my favorite kind, what I play at my home club and as we play in the UK/Ireland. I can't think of a single links course that's playing at even close to this length. I suppose it may be to make up for the lack of other hazzards, wind or pot bunkers. I'm not certain, that's why I made some comments and threw this into the group.

I've never played a links course where I didn't once have to think about the club off the tee, just standard take a driver and hit it as far as you can. I'm not saying it's not fun as some of you kind of suggest, golf is always fun. I'm just saying I'm questioning this course I suppose. Not saying it's bad either.

William, last time I played it from the blue tees with a caddie. Incidentally one of my worst caddie experiences so this time I opted out. I agree it's great as a muni. I'm dying to find out how the course will be set up for the 2015 Open.

On another note I'm extremely interested to find out what they will do with the logistic aspects of the Open, there are not enough hotel beds in 30 miles to take that kind of traffic, no parking and difficult access. I've heard all kinds of stories ranging from cruise ships to train terminals to huge tents. Time will tell.

Thanks for your comments guys, I appreciate all of them.

[Garland Bayley]

... Chambers Bay has 6 par 4's over 400 meters. A couple of these are playing steep uphill. This is favoring bombers IMO. Nothing wrong with that but it makes for kind of boring golf. ...

It depends on your definition of golf. For the Old Tom Morris era, that was golf, and they enjoyed it. 7500 yards is short given modern technology. If you want to replicate what Ken Venturi did at Congressional, then you have to extend courses to 8500 yards.

It seems modern golfers would prefer to hit 300 yard drivers over, next to, and short of ponds, and then hit wedges over, next to, and short of ponds to greens. Seems silly to me compared to the option of hitting driver, fairway wood, wedge, none of which have to be hit while submerged in water.

[Garland Bayley]

Chambers Bay is a great course. I prefer it to two of the courses at Bandon Dunes. If you had simply choosen a set of tees that matched the length of the back tees you find in Bandon, you would have had no excuse to start this thread.

QED

[Matthew Essig]

Well, it sounds to me like you were playing the right tees, I guess. The first hole is extremely difficult; its why, during the US am, the hole was a 530 yard par 5 for a couple days.

How far back was the pin on 12? The local knowledge is to play off the green and have the ball roll back, instead of trying to roll it up to the hole.

Did you use a caddy? They say using a caddy helps a lot, so when playing from that far back, it would alleviate the struggle.

Do you feel the lack of firm and fast conditions caused the course to play longer and harder?

[Richard Choi]

This may be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen around here - and that is saying something.

So, you played from 7500 yards and you are complaining that it was a "long slog". Who exactly forced you to play from there?

Most competitors at US Am were hitting driver-4/5 iron from the very back tee (at that time) on the first hole. If you are hitting a 3 wood in, you should not be hitting from the back tees. And you are blaming the course for that???

What's next? Complaining about the lack of Haute Cuisine options at McDonalds? How tiring it is to run a marathon? That you get too wet when you go for a swim?

Give me a friggin' break...

BTW, I agree that the course is playing WAAAAAYYYY too soft right now (and even more irritating when the shuttle driver keeps mentioning how firm the course is playing). They have been watering aggressively to encourage grass growth. I suspect/hope it will play firmer next year when all of the changes have been set in.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Hole

1 - 498 yds par 4 (into wind from right) Driver, 3 wood - short rolled off the green left down the hill.
5 - 490 yds par 4 (into wind from right) Driver, rescue
6 - 447 yds par 4  (wind behind) Driver, 8 iron
7 - 508 yds par 4 (this was to a temp green but still long uphill)
11 - 500 yds par 4 (into the wind) Driver, 3 wood.
14 - 521 yds par 4 (into the wind) Driver, 3 wood.

...

... every shot is boring, repetative, and/or basic.  ...

Give Mac's definition of slog, what about those holes is a slog?

[Richard Choi]

Just for kicks, these are my typical shot patterns when I play at Chambers (from Sand Tees - around 6400 yards).

1st hole - Driver/4 iron
2nd hole - 3 wood/wedge
3rd hole - 8 iron
4th hole - Driver/5 wood or Driver/7 iron/wedge
5th hole - Driver/6 iron
6th hole - 3 wood/ 8 iron
7th hole - Driver/ 5 iron
8th hole - Driver/ 4 iron/ wedge
9th hole - 8 iron
10th hole - 3 wood/ knocked down 7 iron
11th hole - Driver/ 6 iron
12th hole - Driver
13th hole - Driver/5 wood
14th hole - Driver/ 9 iron
15th hole - PW
16th hole - 3 wood/ wedge
17th hole - 7 iron
18th hole - Driver/ wedge out of bunker/ 4 iron / wedge

I think that is a pretty good mix, if you ask me...

[Gary Slatter]

sorry if I missed it, but what are your hndicaps?

[Brian Colbert]

As I think I've mentioned about 77 times on this site, I played in the US Am at Chambers in 2010. The course measured 7742 yards in the stroke play and I could not imagine anyone who wasn't a national championship-level player trying to play that course from those tees. You say that you hit the ball about 250 yards off the tee, at what point did you look at the scorecard and say "oh gee, 7700 yards, that's all me"? I think it's a little ridiculous to call a course with plenty of strategic interest a "long slog" when 1) it effectively played about 7200 yards or maybe even less for the US Amateur, which I believe saw the course presented in a manner which was intended by the architect, 2) the back tees were designed for only the most elite players in the world (a category which I hesitate to even include myself in), and 3) the course has an incredible variety of holes with regards to strategy and significant elevation changes make up for the relative similarity in yardage.

I'm anything but long off the tee for a player who competes in events like the US Am, and here is what I hit on each hole per the notes I took on my yardage book:

1. Driver, Lob Wedge (caught a speed slot and rolled out to about 420, at the bottom of the hill on the left)
2. 3-wood, 8-iron
3. 7-iron
4. (played at ~515, par 4) Driver, 6-iron
5. Driver, 5-iron
6. Driver, 9-iron
7. Driver, 5-iron
8. Driver, 3-wood, lob wedge
9. 4-iron
10. Driver, pitching wedge
11. Driver, 3-iron
12. 2-iron, sand wedge
13. Driver, 4-iron
14. Driver, 6-iron
15. 2-iron
16. Driver, 8-iron
17. 4-iron
18. Driver, 3-iron, lob wedge

Look at that variety. Did I use every club in my bag before I even got to the area around the greens? Yes. Did I use the same club for an approach shot twice in a row? No. On paper would you say this course lacked variety based on the clubs I hit off the tee and into the greens? I think this is one of the most astonishing posts I've read on this board. I understand some other accusations about Chambers Bay: it's tricked up, it's too aerial for a links course, when presented in the way the designer intended the course has (had) some greens which are nearly impossible to hit, but never did I think anyone who was interested in the study of golf course architecture would claim this course lacked interest.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

if you play any course at 7500 yds unless you're in elevation it's going to be a "slog" for the majority of us.

[Garland Bayley]

if you play any course at 7500 yds unless you're in elevation it's going to be a "slog" for the majority of us.

Disagree

[Stephen Davis]

Matthew,

I think it's fun but not spectacular, last time I played one tee forward which was fine but the wind was different. I'm not that long, if I lose the drive to the right I don't dare say exactly, maybe I hit it around 250 if I do that. On the first hole I hit my tee shot into the first bunker on the right and hit a 3 wood out of that bunker pin high but it rolled down the hill on the left. (tee shot was pretty bad). However 12 was a good tee shot I hit the ball into the wind all the way up to the very top and thought I had made the green but we watched the ball roll back about 15 ft. although I was still up at the very top and could see the back left pin in full view for my approach and could of hit either 8 iron or putter, I chose 8 iron. Sadly rolled up an 8 iron and walked off with a par.

Stephen, what would you say? We played together and you saw some typical drives of mine. Some times they go quite long but I'm not sure really how long that is. I think in general we are pretty close, how far do you hit your drive?

David,

You definitely have a good amount of length and out drive me on quite a few holes, but even though I like playing from the black tees, this sounds far beyond my reach. I would have happily moved up a tee or two.

[Jon Wiggett]

They have been watering aggressively to encourage grass growth.

Richard,

I thought they are trying to grow in a fescue course. If so, I doubt that this is the way to do it.

Jon

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