News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 05:59:27 AM »
Gentlemen,

Thanks for playing along, I don't blame you for not properly reading the comments or getting the point. Clearly that says more about my ability to communicate it. As I wrote in the subject, great or long slog? There is a question mark there which means in my book that I'm attempting to evoke a discussion as much as a appreciate the bashing some of you have chosen to provide.

For further clarification here are some personal details about the lengths I hit my clubs:

Driver 300 yds, 3 wood 250 yds, hybrid 225 yds, 4 iron 200 yds. no wind or elevation changes, further on a links course playing hard and firm. I mentioned clearly that into a 2 club wind and losing it right it only went about 250 yds. However, please note, this is not a good shot. It's a miss hit that I lose right. Unfortunately I did happen to do it more than once.

Yes as I've already mentioned I thought the tees were too long and it wasn't my first choice, however I also wasn't going to play in a 4 ball as the only person from a different set of tees that were further up, from the sounds of it all of you would have which I find interesting, but doubtful. I was supposed to play with the Super or GM originally and it was set for Friday but I had to change my dates and they couldn't accommodate, so I played with 3 random guys. I've played the course before, I knew what the distances were and the scorecard said. I also knew the slope and CR. So yes I chose to even though it was not my first choice.

The appropriate tee was one tee forward as the course at 7000 yds plays far shorter than my home course at 7000 yds and is far more forgiving.

However many of you have suggested that you find this course full of variation yet Brian who's clearly a stud of a golfer and smashes his drives 400 yds plus has hit driver on 11 holes, where is the variation in that? However, Brian you didn't mention what the conditions were, which direction the wind was coming or anything else that adds relevance to your data. BTW thanks for posting it for the 78th time. I've only been on here a couple months so wasn't one of the fortunate ones that benefited from your detailed analysis and US Am experience the first 77 times.

Rich, happy to have made it into your record books for posting the most ridiculous post. I suppose that's something I can be proud of, someone's got to do it. I don't see my post as a complaint, again there is a question mark there. Clearly you don't agree. I'd recommend if you've not made it to Europe to play some UK and Ireland or even NL links courses you do it someday and then let me know how you compare everything and if you still think this post is the most ridiculous one you've ever seen.

GJ, again, where I played is only relevant for me. I've played the forward tees before. The question remains, not is it a long slog for me,  but is it a long slog for golf? Clearly some got the point others did not. I've accepted the blame for that one.

In any case, the majority seems to love it which is cool, that answers the question, you guys find it great! Which is also why new courses are aiming to reach to the 8000 yds mark, the golfing public loves it, even the more informed public seems to.

I personally don't find courses that are set up for pro's to play at those kinds of lengths great. I find them lacking something, perhaps effective architecture that allows them to make the course play shorter yet still challenge the world's best. I bet this course will be set up at something like 7800 or 8000 yds by the time the Open comes around. I don't see another way they can make it tough for these guys.

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2012, 06:12:31 AM »
For further clarification here are some personal details about the lengths I hit my clubs:

Driver 300 yds, 3 wood 250 yds, hybrid 225 yds, 4 iron 200 yds. no wind or elevation changes, further on a links course playing hard and firm.


Forgive me for being a doubting Thomas  :-\, but do you want to re-consider those numbers you listed?

I guess you play off about scratch then?

If you hit the ball that far CONSISTENTLY (as consistently is only meaningful when quoting distances), I don't see how CB can be of much a slog to you. I know I wouldn't even consider playing those back tees unless I could play the next set of tees down, to par.

PS: I'll be measuring you shots at BUDA XI  ;D

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2012, 06:55:42 AM »
ha ha, wouldn't that be a doubting Donal, bring on the measuring it makes no difference. I hit 3 drives over 400 yds at Old Mac with my friend the wind strongly behind me so maybe I should say 400 yds...Course with that wind into my face maybe it's only 150 yds.

It's approximates. I have the advantage of now having some GCA'ers that have witnessed what I do and don't do. I'm sure they will agree that my creative use of cart paths is top notch. I'm just making a guess which I'm assuming to be close. I may be a few yds off. Few does not equate to 25-50...

So you are telling me you wouldn't think of playing a set of tees further back unless you were scratch off the others?

Now you have to forgive me for being a doubting David. Does that mean you play the most forward ladies tees until you can play them off scratch? I highly doubt that otherwise with all do respect I'd be stuck there as I'm assuming a few others might be as well.

My problem is not distance it's consistency and no I'm nowhere near scratch (8.5 hcp) although on this last trip I played three rounds above 80 not knowing the courses at all the highest score was 84 at Chambers, most were from the back tees. Although not at Pacific or Old Mac because  I was dealing with windforce 6 - 7. I made a short recording of it and if I could figure out how to post it I would/will. It was quite fun.

To me a slog is when most of the par 4's play longer than 400 meters, the par 5's longer than 550 meters and the par 3's over 200 meters. It doesn't mean I can't reach them, on a good day I can. It just means it's a long slog to me.

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2012, 07:41:03 AM »
David,

We do have competitions from the back tees (7150 yds, CR/slope is 74.6/133) at my club, but my best score so far is +9. I do play off the back tees now and again, as I believe that if I can get used to the back tees, the middle/medal tees will feel much easier. My theory hasn't really worked so far.  :-\

BTW, I did play the ladies tees twice in competiton and shot -2 and +2 so they now let me play the middle tees.  ;D

There's no doubt that CB is not a slog for the elite players like Brian Colbert. His 78th message on the subject confirmed that.

For mere mortals like you (well less so you) and me, it's a slog off the US Open tees. Should we be surprised? These tees are for the best players in the world.

I do agree that every par 3 over 200 yds, every par 4 over 450 yds and every par 5 over 550 yds is a bit dull and lacks some imagination and creativity on the architects part. His firm designed Bro Hof just up the road from me, and the black tees would make CB's US Open tees looks like middle tees. Maybe you've played it?

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2012, 08:55:07 AM »
Donal,

What's your home club then? I might of played it. I was assuming you were in Ireland somewhere not Sweden. Bro Hof Slot is a place I enjoy. My best friends father is a member there. I've played it and reviewed it. I didn't play it from the back tees. I don't have to tell you this but it may be the longest course in championship golf. It can play 8000 meters from the back tees although in practice they don't utilize that.

I've played the white tees twice which are very long. I have something special with the back 9, I really enjoy it and have shot par on it both times. The front 9 causes me more problems, especially holes 6 and 7.

I think I like that course better than Chamber's Bay.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2012, 09:08:08 AM »
David,

Which part of the 498 yards Par 4 is the long slog for you?

The 300 yard part or the 198 yard part?

To answer my own question I would say it’s the first part by 102 yards.

Isn’t it time to reduce the “length” of the driver so it’s not such a “long slog” and then reduce the holes to 400m (440 yards) otherwise the second shot would only be a maximum of 140 yards?



Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2012, 09:16:53 AM »
David,

Bro-Bĺlsta is my home course; it just 5 mins from Bro Hof. Yes, even off the white tees, Bro Hof is a brutal test. I now see that you must be pretty long.

I'd say during the US Open, CB will do as they do at the Bro Hof during the Scandinavian Masters; play some of the holes off the back tees, some off the middle, and maybe a par 3 or par 4 off the forward tees. The pros would kick up a big fuss if they had to play 260-270 yard par 3s. I don't see why, as all that asks of them is to hit a low iron or hybrid/5W.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2012, 09:59:57 AM »
John,

For me one hole does not make for a long slog of a course.

498 into the wind when you black your ball right into the trap and have 250 over blind makes for a long hole however.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2012, 10:36:37 AM »
...
However many of you have suggested that you find this course full of variation yet Brian who's clearly a stud of a golfer and smashes his drives 400 yds plus has hit driver on 11 holes, where is the variation in that? ...

I'm sorry, but that is not a good measure of anything, let alone whether it is a "slog".
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 10:40:15 AM »
...
GJ, again, where I played is only relevant for me. I've played the forward tees before. The question remains, not is it a long slog for me,  but is it a long slog for golf? Clearly some got the point others did not. I've accepted the blame for that one.
...
...

Hole

1 - 498 yds par 4 (into wind from right) Driver, 3 wood - short rolled off the green left down the hill.
5 - 490 yds par 4 (into wind from right) Driver, rescue
6 - 447 yds par 4  (wind behind) Driver, 8 iron
7 - 508 yds par 4 (this was to a temp green but still long uphill)
11 - 500 yds par 4 (into the wind) Driver, 3 wood.
14 - 521 yds par 4 (into the wind) Driver, 3 wood.

...
... every shot is boring, repetative, and/or basic.  ...

Give Mac's definition of slog, what about those holes is a slog?

Are you avoiding my question?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's all about the golf!

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 11:41:49 AM »
This is just getting silly.

Exactly how many "true links" courses in GB&I have 7500 yard tees??? Even if they do, how many allow you to play it???

Would we be having this discussion if you just played from the Navy tees? I don't think so.

And for the record, when the wind was blowing from the southwest (which is what you faced), USGA moved several tees up (including the first hole), so that those holes were more playable - which you obviously did not do. The length is there for the flexibility of the set up.

Jon, when I say aggressively, that is relative. The course would be considered mildly firm compared to most other courses in NW, and brown compared to poa fairways. But the ground is definitely saturated, and it is not because of the rain.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 11:43:52 AM by Richard Choi »

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 11:43:21 AM »
GJ,

Maybe someone should define slog in the way you are using it? I don't know Mac personally and hadn't seen your question or I would of tried to answer it. The quick dictionary definition of Slog is below:

Definition of SLOG

transitive verb
1
: to hit hard : beat
2
: to plod (one's way) perseveringly especially against difficulty
intransitive verb
1
: to plod heavily : tramp <slogged through the snow>
2
: to work hard and steadily : plug
— slog·ger noun

I can't find a dictionary definition that is just for golf which means you guys are instilling your own meaning and apparently have all agreed on this, please share it with me. However I will play along.

I'd say for me it borders on slog in the specific condition I played it, slow fairways, slow greens, opposite wind. Sure it was challenging but I still did find a few of the holes repetitive and long. I hit driver 3 wood quite a bit which is fine on the other hand it's hard to hit yourself in measurable trouble regardless of the tees you play. The bunkers as I'e mentioned are not measurable trouble unless you get fairly unlucky.

The holes I really like are: #5, 6 and 9 on the front, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 12:08:21 PM »
This has been a fun thread to read, here are my thoughts.

1. Big hitter, David Davis,....long
2. I would call chambers a slog as well but only because of the length of time that rounds can take (Bandon can be like this too at times)
3. What I like about Chambers is that you don't have to grind over every shot into the green because there are often several different types of shots you can hit vs some courses where many holes you have one shot you can play or else
4. I think that the US open will have 5.5 hour rounds and that the final score will be +2
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 12:20:53 PM »
Synonyms: drag, effort, struggle, grind, strain, graft

What about golf and golf at Chambers Bay causes strain? Makes you grind? Causes you to struggle? Creates effort? Causes you to drag yourself around?

Did your playing partners who all shot over 100 mention any of these concepts?

What about golf do you not find to be a joy?

Did your playing partners find joy in their rounds?

What holes did you find repetitive?

So you found some of the holes to be long. This is simply a function of the tees you chose. Why is it even an issue with respect to slog?

Most people agree that 8 is the weakest hole on the course. However, you singled out 1, 5, 6, 7, 11, and 14; and you mentioned repetitive. What is repetitive about these holes?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 12:25:59 PM »
...
2. I would call chambers a slog as well but only because of the length of time that rounds can take (Bandon can be like this too at times)
...

Bingo! You know you are in trouble when the "course assistant" talks to you before your round and request you try to keep within a five hour pace.
As Emile points out, you can have over five hour rounds at Bandon too.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 12:42:40 PM »
I hit the ball a little further than average (maybe ~275 off the tee?), but on my one trip around Chambers Bay I played from the middle tees (~6500?) because I've found that's just about ideal for me on most courses. I didn't find the course to be a "long slog" at all and found it to be a lot of fun. You can turn any course into a "slog" though by playing it at 7500 yards. If someone thinks a course is playing too long, they should probably think about moving up a set of tees (or two in this case).
H.P.S.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 01:30:57 PM »
GJ,

OK thanks. I was a bit off on what you guys call a slog. Is that a universal term then? If I google it basically I only get posts from GCA and nothing else golf related.

Anyway I single out those holes due to length only as they are all above 400 meters which I find to be long for par 4's. I think I mentioned that before though. Agree that 8 is not a good hole, everything regardless of where you hit it rolls right. Perhaps the most extreme left right contour I've seen.

- Definitely played the wrong tees considering the conditions and wind direction.
- Still leaves the question open what other GCA'ers do in those circumstances. Would you be happy to be odd man out and play up at the tees you will find more fun if you know the rest play back? To be fair I would of joined them at the sand tees as well being alone even if I wanted to play the Blue tees just to be more social. Perhaps I'm too nice.
- Never said the course was boring I didn't think that.
- I do think it requires driver to be used too often (for my taste).
- 6 x 400 + meter par 4's is a lot and doesn't call for as much variation or strategy in comparison to other championship links courses with regards to tee shots (oh and I know it's not a true links course, though they are claiming it's a links course). Ram the driver as far as you can. I'd be willing to bet that most of the pro's come Open time will hit driver on the large majority of holes at the course.
- Group was not too fun which actually did make it a bit of a slog. In contrast I had a really great time playing with Stephen, Emile and Pete in Portland. This also affected my round at Chambers as I was expecting something else in terms of playing groups.

Actually our round was surprisingly quick for Chambers, that was great. 4 hour and 15 minutes. Not bad at all, we were able to walk through the entire time. The group behind us was 2 full holes back at the end.


Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 01:52:31 PM »
...
- 6 x 400 + meter par 4's is a lot and doesn't call for as much variation or strategy in comparison to other championship links courses with regards to tee shots (oh and I know it's not a true links course, though they are claiming it's a links course). Ram the driver as far as you can. I'd be willing to bet that most of the pro's come Open time will hit driver on the large majority of holes at the course.
...

The only concept of strategy that you have voiced (and voiced repeatedly) is length of tee shot, or club selection on the tee. Your list of 6 holes has four doglegs, two playing essentially as cape holes, and the third having advantages to position obtained. No strategy there?
Positioning of the tee shot on 1, 5, and 11 is not important? It seems to me that positioning of the tee shot becomes less and less important as the approach club gets shorter and shorter, but yet you are singling out holes where you needed your longest clubs for the approach shot. Perhaps it is back to strategy school for you.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 02:02:21 PM »
David,

Given how long a hitter you are, I think I'd have played the tips with them too, particularly since you've played the course before. If it were my only round at Chambers, I'd have played from a more comfortable distance. I usually play from around 6700, and I'm happy to play from a challenging distance which for me is around 7200 yards, but I won't play from a miserable distance and 7500 qualifies. If someone with your distance can't enjoy the back tees, I'm betting very few people can.

Did your playing partners enjoy playing from so far back? Did they have any business at all back there (were any of them single-digit players who drive it over 280)? It sounds like you drew a poor grouping.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say the course required driver too frequently. We must just have different tastes, as almost all of my favorite courses are ones on which I get to hit driver on almost every par 4 or 5.

400 meters=440 yards, right? Isn't that about a driver-8/9 iron for you? I just can't see how six such holes would be too many. I only drive it about 270 on good days, and some of my favorite courses have similar numbers of such holes.

This topic raises an interesting question when it comes to evaluating modern tournament courses. How do you judge the test presented by the course? I love when a course can get me to hit every club in my bag, but that's kind of arbitrary since any course that accomplishes that feat probably wouldn't do so if I simply changed the tees I'm playing. To pull an example from a similar course, I really enjoyed Erin Hills and hit every club in my bag, but my impression might have been wildly different from another set of tees. Considering the elasticity of the place, I'm not even sure whether certain holes are long or short. I think the 4th played anywhere between 470 and 270 at the US Amateur, for instance.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 02:16:31 PM »
GJ, Yes perhaps it is. Although I wasn't driving the ball particularly well so as mentioned hole one I missed right into the bunker on the tee shot. Hit 3 wood out of the bunker. My normal average drive would of left a much shorter club had I hit the ball middle to left of the fairway. That was my strategy. I failed to execute. So maybe I just need to go back to strategy execution school. Better yet maybe one day I will have the good fortune of playing with you and I can learn by observing. Until then I'll have to be happy hitting my targets and being able to effectively execute my strategy only a percentage of the time (less than 75% I'm afraid). Otherwise I would be a scratch golfer IMO.

Jason, no the other guys actually picked up on several holes and didn't hole out. Their hcp's were 14, 17 and unknown. The unknown was a local guy who claimed to play all the time and have some kind of year pass. He claimed to have birdied all the holes from the back and shot great scores. I didn't say much but couldn't for the life of me see how and he didn't prove it but he did hit a couple interesting shots. I don't think it was a feel good round but I'm honestly not sure it would of been that either if the guys had played from the Sand tees. Just a hunch, sometimes people can be biting off more than they can chew just by showing up.

If I hit a good drive, say 55% of the time then yes driver 8 or 9 iron but that's if it's flat. If it's up hill, bit differennt right. Down hill also different. Don't want you to think that every time I touch the driver it's good for 300 yds down the middle. It's not.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 02:24:51 PM »

Jon, when I say aggressively, that is relative. The course would be considered mildly firm compared to most other courses in NW, and brown compared to poa fairways. But the ground is definitely saturated, and it is not because of the rain.

Thanks for the clarification Richard. I can understand that it must be a problem getting people to understand what makes a good fescue sward in most areas of the US as it is not the standard grass type.

Jon

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 02:29:26 PM »
I am not usually the one to say that one's handicap should determine where you play, but no double digit handicap should be playing from the tips at Chambers. I have played from the tips a couple of times, but that was when the course was playing firmer and I was more curious than anything how the course presented itself from the tips. I would never play from there on any kind of regular basis.

I am also a bit surprised as they don't usually put tee markers at the very back tees (when I played it, we just kind of snuck on to those tees). My partner in crime, Brent Carlson, is a pretty big hitter (the folks from The 5th Major know what I am talking about). And even he thinks Chambers plays longer than the yardages from the Navy (~6700 to 7000 yards). This is largely due to the fact that many of the longest holes offer chances to cut the corners quite a bit over a hazard (like 7th and 14th). If you are playing from the way back, you will not be able to cut those corners (unless you bomb it 300+) and you will have extremely long approaches.

The starter should have known better than to let you guys play from back there.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 03:05:29 PM »
David,

I just had a look at the CB scorecard.

http://www.chambersbaygolf.com/chambersbay.asp?id=232&page=8188

You played a par 77 course with 9 par 5s (9 holes of 490+ yds)  :o

No wonder it felt like a slog!!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamber's Bay, great or long slog?
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2012, 03:28:35 PM »
David,

Although I have a strategy in mind for most shots, I undoubtedly accomplish the desired result less than you. In the case of some of the long par 4s, that strategy includes where to place my second shot as I am playing them as a three shotter.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back