[Patrick_Mucci]

Didn't Jack drive it over the 18th green at TOC in 1970?

David,

What's interesting about Nicklaus are the comments he made as an announcer during the final round of the 1995 British Open when he was describing how he'd play each hole, each shot if he were Daly.   As if to ignore him, Daly played a game with which Jack wasn't familiar.  Hazards that affected Jack's game and strategy were of no consequence to Daly's game.

We know that Nicklaus was long, amongst the longest of his peers, but he was totally unprepared and totally out of touch with Daly's and the new breed's game.

Imagine for a second that you're in charge of a group of local guys wanting to build a new membership course that has aspirations to hold a PGA Tour event or a Major, and you retain Tom Doak as your architect.

How can he craft a high quality course for your members, one that will also challenge the best golfers in the world today, and into the future ?

How long will it have to be ?
Will it have the elasticity necessary to meet the future demands of additional distance attained by high tech ?
How can the features be located such that they're integrated with every golfers game ?
Or do you have to create more of them, dedicated to each level of golfer ?  And if so, how can you be sure that they don't unintentionally interfere with another level of golfer's game ?

As the gap in distance between the best and worst golfers increases how can the architect serve more than one master ?

[Bryan Izatt]

For whatever it's worth, the distance genie hasn't got any more out of the bottle in 2012 according to the PGA Tour stats, despite the plethora of 400 yard drives.  Nor has the gap between the shortest and longest Tour players. 

The average European Tour player is 3 yards shorter on average than the average PGA Tour player in 2012.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I wonder why anyone would want to build a course these days that can/ could contain these guys. Guys at our course are always scrambling to see where we can add length to make it more of a challenge. but the base handicap has not changed in years. How much would have to be spent to get a course that they would consider long enough to be a true test??  Then what do you do with it the rest of the year, wouldn't it be too costly for the average club to maintain??

Those bunkers on 9 were in my way last year and will be in my way again next year. And I love that.

[Brent Hutto]

By the way, the USGA Handicap system is predicated on an a priori definition of the scores posted by a "scratch golfer". Handicaps do not change over time because the system works as intended. Course ratings and slope ratings are calibrated to produce the same mix of handicap indices for the same (relative) caliber of player, regardless of era.

[David Whitmer]

Didn't Jack drive it over the 18th green at TOC in 1970?

David,

What's interesting about Nicklaus are the comments he made as an announcer during the final round of the 1995 British Open when he was describing how he'd play each hole, each shot if he were Daly.   As if to ignore him, Daly played a game with which Jack wasn't familiar.  Hazards that affected Jack's game and strategy were of no consequence to Daly's game.

We know that Nicklaus was long, amongst the longest of his peers, but he was totally unprepared and totally out of touch with Daly's and the new breed's game.

Imagine for a second that you're in charge of a group of local guys wanting to build a new membership course that has aspirations to hold a PGA Tour event or a Major, and you retain Tom Doak as your architect.

How can he craft a high quality course for your members, one that will also challenge the best golfers in the world today, and into the future ?

How long will it have to be ?
Will it have the elasticity necessary to meet the future demands of additional distance attained by high tech ?
How can the features be located such that they're integrated with every golfers game ?
Or do you have to create more of them, dedicated to each level of golfer ?  And if so, how can you be sure that they don't unintentionally interfere with another level of golfer's game ?

As the gap in distance between the best and worst golfers increases how can the architect serve more than one master ?

Patrick,

Anyone who has been given marching orders of "Build us a golf course that will sufficiently test the best players in the world while at the same time giving us a high-quality course that we will enjoy every day" certainly has his work cut out for him. In my opinion, there are two different avenues to go down.

Firstly, you could build a course like Augusta National (I know how stupid that sounds...hear me out). Have very little rough and wide playing corridors. Have few obstacles from tee to green, so as to minimize the potential penalties for the average member. Make the majority of the golf course's defense be at the greens. Build greens that are very undulating, that can be sped up when the pros visit. As Ran said in one of his course reviews, short grass around the green is playable for the average person, while it may be the toughest surface for the better player to play on. Have the greens' contours and greenside bunkers reward approaches from certain sides of the fairways.

Secondly (and I'm not sure you can set out to do this), you can build a golf course that first and foremost tests the pros, with the opinion that "If you build it (a "tour course"), they will come (members)." The first course like this that comes to mind is Oakmont. I have not played Oakmont, but it is my understanding that it is very, very difficult for everyday play. But, members and their guests flock to it because, well, it's Oakmont. But like I said I'm not sure that attitude can be planned and pulled off successfully.

To my knowledge, the only golf course that was built recently with the intention of being a PGA Tour course and a members' course is Redstone, in Houston. I don't know much more about it; anybody have any idea if it's a good track?

The very features that sufficiently test the best players (narrow fairways and heavy rough, especially around the greens) are the features that usually cause an average member's enjoyment to drop.

We know now that distance simply for the sake of distance does not really bother the pros, but I guess to pull it off you'd have to have enough land to build tees for them, with enough land to stretch the tees out as distances increase.

I have never played Merion, but it seems from everything I have read it is a fantastic members' golf course. It also seems to test great players (though we'll see next June). How does Merion pull it off? Are there hazards or features in play for great players that don't affect the average player? What allows an average guy to shoot decent scores that will also prevent touring pros next year from shooting 62s and 63s?

As I said, quite a difficult task to be given.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

It's not the gap between the longest and shortest tour players, it's the gap between the longest tour players and the shortest members.

If there are a good deal more 400 yard drives how can the average driving distance remain static ?

[JESII]

Bryan,

It's not the gap between the longest and shortest tour players, it's the gap between the longest tour players and the shortest members.

That's foolish!

What percentage of rounds played at your course are by Tour players?

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

It's not the gap between the longest and shortest tour players, it's the gap between the longest tour players and the shortest members.

If there are a good deal more 400 yard drives how can the average driving distance remain static ?

Patrick,

Do you believe that it is possible that a course can be built so as to be playable by the shortest member and challenging to the longest hitting tour pros?  If so, how would you design it?

The point of the difference between shortest and longest on the tour stat was to see if there was a growing gap over time between the shortest and longest.  There hasn't been in the last decade.

I hope you can figure out the math of your 400 yard drive question on your own.  It's grade school math.  If you can't, I doubt that I could explain it to you so that you'd understand.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

It's not the gap between the longest and shortest tour players, it's the gap between the longest tour players and the shortest members.

That's foolish!

What percentage of rounds played at your course are by Tour players?

Jim,

I'm surprised at your lack of enlightened perspective given your family's background in golf administration.

We both know that clubs are frequently asked to give back to the game by hosting events.
Events such as the GAP Open, local and sectional qualifiers for the US Open, etc., etc..

As such, PGA Tour Players do frequent local clubs.
You're also no doubt aware that clubs pride themselves on the difficulty of their course, that they want it to stand up to the better golfers.

Existing course tend to be land locked, but new courses can have more flexibility when it comes to length.

So the architect's challenge, when a developer wants a course that will test the best while accommodating member play, is far more difficult today.

ANGC, formed in 1934 is almost 7,700 yards today, and it might get even longer.
Why do you think that is ?

The difficulty is not just  in having everyone arrive at the same DZ, but creating an equal challenge on the approach shot.

And, when you move the tees back, do you use the existing bunker scheme or add to it ?

And if you add to it, how do you accomplish that without unduly impacting the other levels of golfers ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do you believe that it is possible that a course can be built so as to be playable by the shortest member and challenging to the longest hitting tour pros? 

I think it's very, very difficult.
I don't want to speak for him but I think Tom Doak expressed similar feelings

 If so, how would you design it?

First, you would need more land = more cost.
You'd probably have to approach the 8,000 yard mark

The point of the difference between shortest and longest on the tour stat was to see if there was a growing gap over time between the shortest and longest.  There hasn't been in the last decade.

The "GAP" in PGA Tour distance is irrelevant.
If the longest was 300 and the shortest 250 and now the longest is 325 and the shortest is 275, it doesn't reflect the overall increase in distance and the increasing GAP between the longest PGA Tour Pro and the shorter local club members

I hope you can figure out the math of your 400 yard drive question on your own.  It's grade school math.  If you can't, I doubt that I could explain it to you so that you'd understand.

I understand the math better than you, your problem is a bigger one, you don't understand the concept, the emerging, larger GAP between the Longer PGA Tour Pro and the shorter member and the dilemma that it presents to the architect charged with crafting a reasonable challenge for both and everyone in between

[Jud_T]

Patrick,

There is no more reasonable challenge for everyone.  You need tees from 4500-8000.  How do you propose placing hazards and doglegs?  Randomly?  The point is to quit measuring Johnsons and tell the 1%ers (those in this case who legitimately can play 7000+, enjoy it and consistently score well) to sod off mucking about members' courses.  90% of golfers would be very happy with a 6500 yard course and probably 80% 6000 even with today's technology. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud,

While I agree, that's not what I'm observing.

One course I'm familiar with, played to about 6,500-6.600 yards, yet, there was an effort to lengthen it.

When I asked, "Why" ?, they said to make it more challenging.

I said, in qualifying for the club championship, of the 20 or so who tried, only one broke 80, so for whom are you making the course more challenging ?

That seems to be at the core of the problem.

The other day I played that course, a terrically sporty members course, with three guests.
Granted that it was wet from all the rain we had, but, we played the blue tees which are probably a shade under 6,500 and two of the guests commented, how long the course was and don't I believe in playing it forward to the white tees.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

We're in agreement.  The real problem lies in the egos of the committee.  Paradoxically, many of these folks feel they need to "keep up with the Joneses" to keep their club relevent for future prospective members, when in fact they are often taking away the uniqueness that made the course special in the first place and just becoming closer to so many other "Championship" course slogs that are out there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud,

I think it goes well beyond the committee level, I think it's almost systemic, throughout the membership.

It's clearly an arms race.

Can TV be to blame ?

[Jud_T]

Jud,

I think it goes well beyond the committee level, I think it's almost systemic, throughout the membership.

It's clearly an arms race.

Can TV be to blame ?

Certainly.  I think it's time we differentiate between a great course and a great championship course.  The subset of those two is getting smaller by the day.

[Sean_A]

Bryan,

It's not the gap between the longest and shortest tour players, it's the gap between the longest tour players and the shortest members.

If there are a good deal more 400 yard drives how can the average driving distance remain static ?

Patrick,

Do you believe that it is possible that a course can be built so as to be playable by the shortest member and challenging to the longest hitting tour pros?  If so, how would you design it?

The point of the difference between shortest and longest on the tour stat was to see if there was a growing gap over time between the shortest and longest.  There hasn't been in the last decade.

I hope you can figure out the math of your 400 yard drive question on your own.  It's grade school math.  If you can't, I doubt that I could explain it to you so that you'd understand.

Bryan The Saint Izatt is hard at it again.  A good man's work is never finished.

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

For whatever it's worth, the distance genie hasn't got any more out of the bottle in 2012 according to the PGA Tour stats, despite the plethora of 400 yard drives.  Nor has the gap between the shortest and longest Tour players. 

The average European Tour player is 3 yards shorter on average than the average PGA Tour player in 2012.

Bryan:  I don't think the top 30 golfers were average.  The average tour player didn't make the "playoffs".

Patrick:  They were using some forward tees on Sunday at the Dunhill - not sure why.  I was playing with a 5 handicap player once who drove both 9 and 10, very rare as one is usually into the wind.  He went 3/4.

[Bryan Izatt]

Gary,

The graphic represents the annual tour average, nothing to do with the playoffs.


Sean,

With Patrick as the subject, there is no end to a "good man's work".    

[Bryan Izatt]

Do you believe that it is possible that a course can be built so as to be playable by the shortest member and challenging to the longest hitting tour pros? 

I think it's very, very difficult.
I don't want to speak for him but I think Tom Doak expressed similar feelings

So, you think it possible, just "very, very difficult"?  Can you name a course built in the last 20 years where you think it was achieved?  There should be some lessons there.

 If so, how would you design it?

First, you would need more land = more cost.
You'd probably have to approach the 8,000 yard mark

How does 8,000 yards make it playable for the shorter member?

The point of the difference between shortest and longest on the tour stat was to see if there was a growing gap over time between the shortest and longest.  There hasn't been in the last decade.

The "GAP" in PGA Tour distance is irrelevant.
If the longest was 300 and the shortest 250 and now the longest is 325 and the shortest is 275, it doesn't reflect the overall increase in distance and the increasing GAP between the longest PGA Tour Pro and the shorter local club members

Has the average distance for your "shorter local members" changed much over the last two decades?  I don't have stats for that.  Do you?  The premise that the increasing GAP between the longest PGA Tour Pro and the shorter local club members is a problem is your premise, not mine.

I hope you can figure out the math of your 400 yard drive question on your own.  It's grade school math.  If you can't, I doubt that I could explain it to you so that you'd understand.

I understand the math better than you, your problem is a bigger one, you don't understand the concept, the emerging, larger GAP between the Longer PGA Tour Pro and the shorter member and the dilemma that it presents to the architect charged with crafting a reasonable challenge for both and everyone in between

How many architects have been presented with this dilemma, for new courses or old ones?  Have any successfully addressed it in your opinion? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do you believe that it is possible that a course can be built so as to be playable by the shortest member and challenging to the longest hitting tour pros?

I think it's very, very difficult.
I don't want to speak for him but I think Tom Doak expressed similar feelings

So, you think it possible, just "very, very difficult"?  Can you name a course built in the last 20 years where you think it was achieved?  There should be some lessons there.

Sebonack might be one.
PGA West, Kiawah and Oak Tree probably tried.
Never having played them I can't tell you how successful they were.

In terms of existing courses, ANGC and BPB might meet the challenge.

 If so, how would you design it?

First, you would need more land = more cost.
You'd probably have to approach the 8,000 yard mark

How does 8,000 yards make it playable for the shorter member?

Bryan, that's a really dumb question, one you should have known the answer to.
8,000 yards isn't for the shorter hitter, but you do need it for the longest hitters.
The shorter players aren't playing from 8,000.
I'm shocked that you didn't know that.

The point of the difference between shortest and longest on the tour stat was to see if there was a growing gap over time between the shortest and longest.  There hasn't been in the last decade.

The "GAP" in PGA Tour distance is irrelevant.
If the longest was 300 and the shortest 250 and now the longest is 325 and the shortest is 275, it doesn't reflect the overall increase in distance and the increasing GAP between the longest PGA Tour Pro and the shorter local club members

Has the average distance for your "shorter local members" changed much over the last two decades?  I don't have stats for that.  Do you?  The premise that the increasing GAP between the longest PGA Tour Pro and the shorter local club members is a problem is your premise, not mine.

In your quest to argue, you're looking more foolish.
Yeah Byran, the distance the shorter hitters are driving the ball is up 100 yards..
The distance shorter hitters hit the ball tends to remain static, therefore, as the longer hitters get longer, the gap widens.
Have someone explain that to you

I hope you can figure out the math of your 400 yard drive question on your own.  It's grade school math.  If you can't, I doubt that I could explain it to you so that you'd understand.

I understand the math better than you, your problem is a bigger one, you don't understand the concept, the emerging, larger GAP between the Longer PGA Tour Pro and the shorter member and the dilemma that it presents to the architect charged with crafting a reasonable challenge for both and everyone in between

How many architects have been presented with this dilemma, for new courses or old ones?  Have any successfully addressed it in your opinion?  

Seven.
Probably Doak and Nicklaus at Sebonack
I think it's very, very difficult to accomplish.

Courses that I haven't played, which I heard tried to accomplish this were PGA West, Kiawah and Oak Tree

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I understood about the 8,000 yards being for the longest hitters, but I thought you were trying to get to something more sophisticated than just adding length to address the long hitters.  You did say "first", but then didn't elaborate on second, third etc.  Can you address what else you would do?

I was inquiring as to whether you have any stats to back up your assertion that shorter hitters' length has remained static?  I guess not.  If PGA Tour pros are 10% longer on average from the early 90's to say 2010, are you guessing that shorter hitters are 0% longer over the same time period?  By the way, what is your definition of a shorter hitter?  200 yards?  Less?

I haven't played Sebonack, ANGC or BPB so can't comment or see what features they might have that would address the gap.  I have played Kiawah and PGA West and will only say that they, particularly PGA West, are not all that playable for short hitters.  In that vein I would think that TPC Sawgrass might be a better example because it doesn't really use length to challenge the long hitters.  Perversely, the things that challenge the tour pros also kill the shorter hitters.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I understood about the 8,000 yards being for the longest hitters, but I thought you were trying to get to something more sophisticated than just adding length to address the long hitters.  You did say "first", but then didn't elaborate on second, third etc.  Can you address what else you would do?

I was.
I thought I previously expressed the dilemma of providing an exceptional challenge for all levels of golfers on the same golf course

I was inquiring as to whether you have any stats to back up your assertion that shorter hitters' length has remained static?  I guess not. 

It's called common sense.
It's also based on observation.
Short hitters don't suddenly begin adding substantive length

 If PGA Tour pros are 10% longer on average from the early 90's to say 2010, are you guessing that shorter hitters are 0% longer over the same time period? 

There's no relevance, no relationship between the distance that Tour Pros drive the ball and the distance short hitters drive the ball

By the way, what is your definition of a shorter hitter?  200 yards?  Less?

Less.
The fact that you chose 200 yards tells me that you don't know what a short hitter is.

I haven't played Sebonack, ANGC or BPB so can't comment or see what features they might have that would address the gap.  I have played Kiawah and PGA West and will only say that they, particularly PGA West, are not all that playable for short hitters. 


That's because the primary design mandate was directed toward the PGA Tour type player, with the others the secondary consideration

In that vein I would think that TPC Sawgrass might be a better example because it doesn't really use length to challenge the long hitters.  Perversely, the things that challenge the tour pros also kill the shorter hitters.

TPC Sawgrass has been modified so many times since inception that it may not be a good example of the original design intent.

Your last sentence is a critical one and another example of the dilemma the architect faces in trying to craft a superior challenge that every level of golfer can enjoy

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