News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2012, 01:46:09 PM »
Why change the green? It looks to me as though there is enough room to expand if they need to.

Jon

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2012, 02:02:19 PM »
Why change the green? It looks to me as though there is enough room to expand if they need to.

Jon
I was under the impression that expansion is the intention Jon, not a full scale redesign... At least I hope so...

Alfonso Erhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2012, 03:19:35 PM »
Have the tees been moved back over time? One of the problems with Simpson's short holes (at least in Spain) is that the devilish greens work very well while the holes are short (as designed by Simpson). In Puerta de Hierro there use to be a fantastic and very difficult par 3 by Simpson. Probably best hole in the entire property. Tees were moved back to make the course longer and suddenly the hole became impossible as there was no way of holding the green. The hole eventually disappeared but no one ever thought of making the hole shorter again. Going shorter is never in people's minds, for some reason....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2012, 03:26:22 PM »
Could they just add an alternative green in the location marked or some other?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2012, 04:25:29 PM »
The club changes the 2nd green 6 years ago but it's now deemed unsuccessful and needs remodeling again...so why do they expect changes to a much finer hole, the 5th, to be any better?  
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2012, 04:46:58 PM »
Paul, work is being done by Philip Spogaard, who is a good architect, but has no experience with Tom Simpson courses yet.

...

Well he failed to put me first on his armchair architect ballot in the contest he judged, so that speaks for itself.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2012, 05:17:12 PM »
Alfonso, the 5th hole plays under 160 yards from the back tee. As far as I know the tees are in the same position that they always have been perhaps give or take 10 or 15 yards... In fact the 5th, 7th and 15th holes all play around the 160 yard mark.... Only the 17th plays much longer and it is by far the least interesting (though as Ivan pointed out quite a challenge)...

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2012, 03:00:23 AM »
The club changes the 2nd green 6 years ago but it's now deemed unsuccessful and needs remodeling again...so why do they expect changes to a much finer hole, the 5th, to be any better?  

Was it an in-house job or was there an architect involved?
I wonder what they wanted with the 2nd green, and why is it unsatisfactory?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2012, 03:36:15 AM »
Have the tees been moved back over time? One of the problems with Simpson's short holes (at least in Spain) is that the devilish greens work very well while the holes are short (as designed by Simpson). In Puerta de Hierro there use to be a fantastic and very difficult par 3 by Simpson. Probably best hole in the entire property. Tees were moved back to make the course longer and suddenly the hole became impossible as there was no way of holding the green. The hole eventually disappeared but no one ever thought of making the hole shorter again. Going shorter is never in people's minds, for some reason....

Yes, this was my thinking regardless of original length.  Create a forward tee (probably expand the ladies tee) which can be used on windy days.  Its so rare that archies think outside the boxes of length, bunkers and altering greens.  Sometimes, shorter is better.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ivan Morris

Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2012, 04:27:44 AM »
Ally - Of course, I remember the "Sahara" at Ballybunion's 13th hole in 1960, I 'spent' a few costly strokes in there from time to time. It was more a waste area than a bunker; lots of stones, shells, tufts and debris (which could not be touched.) I agree that it has been detrimentally sanitized and reduced in size but I can tolerate that. It is the green complex that offends. I doubt if anybody at Ballybee would pay much attention to me. After all, I'm the guy who had the nerve to write that Lahinch is 3-strokes better ;-))))))

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2012, 05:01:15 AM »
Ivan - You don't have any ground shot photos of the sahara bunker / waste area by chance?... The green isn't the best but I thought it had a few things going for it... Is it the blindness & narrow entrance you object to?

Sean - Completely guessing here but I reckon the 5th green change will have as much to do with wear and maintenance as playability and that certainly wouldn't be helped by shortening the hole. It may even be hindered given the increased number of people hitting the surface directly.

Ally

Ivan Morris

Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2012, 06:02:27 AM »
Sorry, Ally - I've never been one for taking photographs. I don't own a camera, don't take family photos let alone ones of golf courses! I have seen pix of the Sahara. They do exist. I wonder is there one in the History of Ballybunion book? I don't have that either - a serious gap in my extensive library of golf books. I have 'dozens' of golf club histories but not the Ballybunion one! Shame on me! 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2012, 08:20:14 AM »
I find it hard to believe the club is doing more rounds now than it was 5 -10 years ago when Yanks were piling off golf buses in droves.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2012, 10:08:48 AM »
I find it hard to believe the club is doing more rounds now than it was 5 -10 years ago when Yanks were piling off golf buses in droves.

Was County Louth ever really a major destination for American golfers?  And even if it was, what % of the total rounds could American golfers have made up?  When I was there, over two days we saw zero Americans, and the course was quite full with what seemed to be only locals -- in fact, it looked like it had a very very robust junior program.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2012, 10:11:47 AM »
Carl,

While not the top destination it certainly would be included on any tour that went beyond just very biggest names.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2012, 10:17:24 AM »
Carl,

While not the top destination it certainly would be included on any tour that went beyond just very biggest names.

Meaning how many rounds/year from Americans?  I have no specific information on which to base what I'm about to say, but I would think just a 5% increase in local play would dwarf a 50% drop in play from Americans.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2012, 10:48:10 AM »
You may be right, but I would thing they get more than 5% of their play from non-locals, i.e. all golf travelers, not just Americans.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2016, 11:24:06 AM »
Does anyone have a picture of the Simpson 5th green?


Cheers...

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2016, 02:14:59 PM »
Clyde,
Some footage here at 1 min 15 secs - https://vimeo.com/138392285
Atb

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2016, 02:47:52 PM »
Don't have the old green, but here is one of the current hole.


Baltray #5

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2016, 02:56:34 PM »
Hard to tell about slope from a picture but it looks like it fits in nicely with the surrounds.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2016, 04:41:44 PM »
Thanks David and Stewart.


I was there this Sunday, so hoping for a before picture...there were a couple earlier in the thread, now with dead links.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2016, 08:00:49 PM »




Image is courtesy of Aiden Bradley

Baltray had one of the greatest short threes I have ever played. The key to the hole was the fact that you have to work the ball into the slope if you want to stick it on the green surface for a birdie putt. Anything else is thrown aside by the natural slope of the green and the surrounds of the land.

 The tee shot is over a small valley to a green cut into the left side of a prominent knoll and gives no clues to what lies ahead. The golfer is further confused by the bunkers cut into the right hand side in front of the green almost suggesting to flirt with that side. The area in front of the green is kept short and plenty steep enough that the ball will find either the bunkers on the way by or the bottom of the bowl. It doesn’t matter which because the player is dead either way.

 The green surface has not only a severe right to left fall, but was punctuated by a nice drop in the centre to speed up any ball that is thinking of stopping in the middle of the green. To leave it on the upper tier, you must hit a cut shot that stops dead. The problem is most don’t and once the ball begins retreating down the tier is it will have enough speed to cross the green and find the droop on the left, and this leads all the way off into a chipping area well below the green. You can get up and down from here, but don’t get aggressive because you may return to where you started from.


You can’t miss long because the ball will roll off and away at the back and the recovery shot is downhill too? The worst spot is right of the green; Simpson in all his glory added a bunker above where there is no possible recovery from. The only miss possible is left which is where most balls hitting the green will eventually go once they begin running anyway. By the way it never matters where the pin is cut because the only goal off the tee is anywhere on the green. Once there, the next trick is to try and two putt, even from in close, because this little devil has an amazing amount of contour.


It was one of my favourite 18 greens, when I composed a list for my old blog ...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 08:04:43 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2016, 09:45:59 PM »
The picture that Ian posted is in Another Journey Through the Links.  I was just about to post it.

Here's a pic from the tee.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: County Louth/Baltray Changes
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2016, 12:36:18 AM »
How have the contours on the green changed?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back