Saturday Afternoon Question: Can Europe Claw Its Way Back?

[Wade Whitehead]

Woods couldn't make the putt on 18 even without the pressure on him.  It was all ego at that point and he didn't even hit the hole.

WW

[Phil McDade]

Guess sitting Bradley/Mickelson yesterday and putting you're rookies out early was 't such a brilliant call.  I have to say I was rooting for the comeback.

In 99 didn't Mark James send out all the rookies first?

Sam:

The big issue with James is that he put out three guys -- Sandelin, Van de Velde and Coltart -- who hadn't played at all prior to singles. They went out 3rd, 4th and 5th, when everyone knew Crenshaw would front-load the line-up to make up the 10-6 deficit. You can still make an argument for benching those three guys -- the Euro squad was really top-heavy that year (Monty, Westwood, Clarke, Harrington, Olazabal) -- and the three Euros who sat out were on the squad due to goofy Euro selection process. But there wasn't much excuse for sending them out early -- James essentially conceded three full points to the US, and they all lost.

[Anthony Butler]

Picking Stricker and Furyk was crap, and I'm not just armchair quarterbacking.  It was pretty controversial beforehand.

Weren't you the 'expert' who pronounced earlier in this thread that Europe had to go 3-1 Saturday afternoon to have a shot at this?

I think your armchair might be broken.

[John Shimp]

Wade

Why bring up Woods?  Match was over.

Btw, he is the greatest pressure putter the game has ever known.  2nd shot in likely plays out differently in that match if the cup hadnt been won already.  

[Matthew Rose]

It's fun to kick a man when he's down.

[Tim Martin]

Justin Rose is an assassin and classy as they come. WOW!!!!

They both were.
This is getting good.....

and now the US needs a miracle

Jeff-Agreed that Mickelson showed a ton of class as well. It sure isn`t easy to lose a match like that and show that much grace. The camera panned to him during the Euro celebration signing autographs around 18 green. That`s class!

[Mark Johnson]

lesson learned is ryder cup experience is overrated-- best evidenced by captains picks on sticker and furyk.    no way rickie or hunter lay down like what we saw this weekend.

[Phil McDade]

It's fun to kick a man when he's down.

On the other hand......

Isn't Tiger's performance in the Ryder Cup one of the great golf -- event sporting -- mysteries of our time?

He's now 13-17-3 in the Ryder Cup -- hardly the record of the best player to come around since Nicklaus. He was 0-3 this week heading into singles, and while some of that was Stricker, Tiger bore his responsibility for some of that as well. And playing against -- perhaps -- the weakest player on the Euro squad (certainly in the bottom quartile), he lets Molinari stay in the match, with implications for the entire Cup, through the 17th hole.

What gives? I've said it before, but it's in his DNA -- his public pronouncements to the contrary -- that a guy who wants to be known as the single greatest individual player in golf history can't figure out how to translate that talent into a team event.

[Alex Miller]

It's fun to kick a man when he's down.

On the other hand......

Isn't Tiger's performance in the Ryder Cup one of the great golf -- event sporting -- mysteries of our time?

He's now 13-17-3 in the Ryder Cup -- hardly the record of the best player to come around since Nicklaus. He was 0-3 this week heading into singles, and while some of that was Stricker, Tiger bore his responsibility for some of that as well. And playing against -- perhaps -- the weakest player on the Euro squad (certainly in the bottom quartile), he lets Molinari stay in the match, with implications for the entire Cup, through the 17th hole.

What gives? I've said it before, but it's in his DNA -- his public pronouncements to the contrary -- that a guy who wants to be known as the single greatest individual player in golf history can't figure out how to translate that talent into a team event.

In the context of the Ryder Cups that he's been a part of, his record hardly weighs down the U.S. overall.

His singles record is still good, despite his halved match to Molinari today (who is no slouch, he played pretty well).

A much simpler explanation: the U.S. just hasn't been as good as the Euros while Tiger's been around, and he's not immune to that showing up in his record.


And for the record, I think he's translated that talent to the team event in the President's Cup (18-11-1) so why not bring that up too?

[Phil McDade]

And for the record, I think he's translated that talent to the team event in the President's Cup (18-11-1) so why not bring that up too?

Because the President's Cup -- from what I've read -- doesn't have half the pressure of the Ryder Cup.

Euro had pretty strong squads before Tiger came around, with wins in '85, '87, and '95 and near-misses in '83, '91 and '93. No player in from Euro since Tiger came on board has come near his record in golf generally.

His RCup record in singles has come at the expense of Euro's lesser players who he's been matched up against.

[John Shimp]

Would have been great to see 18 t woods and molinari with the cup on the line.  I think all the shots after the drives would have been different.

Tiger was bad in his one foursomes match but was great in 4 ball. 31 twice on the back 9.  Not as good today.  I love Strcker but he was a heavy load for team US and tiger.  

[Alex Miller]

Would have been great to see 18 t woods and molinari with the cup on the line.  I think all the shots after the drives would have been different.

Tiger was bad in his one foursomes match but was great in 4 ball. 31 twice on the back 9.  Not as good today.  I love Strcker but he was a heavy load for team US and tiger.  

Agreed.

[Phil McDade]

Would have been great to see 18 t woods and molinari with the cup on the line.  I think all the shots after the drives would have been different.

Tiger was bad in his one foursomes match but was great in 4 ball. 31 twice on the back 9.  Not as good today.  I love Strcker but he was a heavy load for team US and tiger.  

Agreed.

The official scoring has Tiger's score in Fri. fourballs counting 10 times, with 4 of those winning the hole for the US, while Stricker's score counted 8 times. On Sat.'s fourballs, both Stricker and Tiger had nine holes that were counted, with 3 for Tiger and 2 for Stricker counting for winning holes. Strick not doubt didn't play very well, probably as poorly as any American, but I'm not sure he was quite the heavy load being characterized here.

And this...Molinari has, once, finished 10th in a major -- best finish ever in major. Kaymer's won a major, and finished in the top 10 three other times, and won 10 times on the Euro Tour to 3 for Molinari.

[Sam Morrow]

Guess sitting Bradley/Mickelson yesterday and putting you're rookies out early was 't such a brilliant call.  I have to say I was rooting for the comeback.

In 99 didn't Mark James send out all the rookies first?

Sam:

The big issue with James is that he put out three guys -- Sandelin, Van de Velde and Coltart -- who hadn't played at all prior to singles. They went out 3rd, 4th and 5th, when everyone knew Crenshaw would front-load the line-up to make up the 10-6 deficit. You can still make an argument for benching those three guys -- the Euro squad was really top-heavy that year (Monty, Westwood, Clarke, Harrington, Olazabal) -- and the three Euros who sat out were on the squad due to goofy Euro selection process. But there wasn't much excuse for sending them out early -- James essentially conceded three full points to the US, and they all lost.

Thanks Phil, I couldn't remember all the details. What is Jarmo doing these days, fashion designer maybe?

[Ben Sims]

I visited my nieces this weekend and watched the Pixar flick "Finding Nemo."  There's a scene where a struggle between some fish causes an old submarine and a few dozen mines to explode violently underwater.  Two pelicans are on the surface when the result of the all the melee' is felt...a single small bubble. 

That's my analogy for the Ryder Cup.  All this hub-bub and hoopla, little substance. 

A couple of examples.  Yesterday I went to the Tennessee v. UGA game in Athens, GA.  I spent some time with a few Division-I golf coaches and looking back on it, the RC didn't come up.  Today I drove over to my club in South Carolina and there was nothing but football on in the snack bar.  In tonight's hindsight, I'm very surprised at how little attention it was garnering from avid golfers and sports fans--and myself. 

[Sam Morrow]

I visited my nieces this weekend and watched the Pixar flick "Finding Nemo."  There's a scene where a struggle between some fish causes an old submarine and a few dozen mines to explode violently underwater.  Two pelicans are on the surface when the result of the all the melee' is felt...a single small bubble. 

That's my analogy for the Ryder Cup.  All this hub-bub and hoopla, little substance. 

A couple of examples.  Yesterday I went to the Tennessee v. UGA game in Athens, GA.  I spent some time with a few Division-I golf coaches and looking back on it, the RC didn't come up.  Today I drove over to my club in South Carolina and there was nothing but football on in the snack bar.  In tonight's hindsight, I'm very surprised at how little attention it was garnering from avid golfers and sports fans--and myself. 

You didn't talk Ryder Cup because you almost lost to Tennessee.

[Jud_T]

Henceforth when you look up "nice guys finish last" in the dictionary there will be a picture of Davis Love.  He picked veterans out of a sense of history and obligation and he let them make decisions instead of making them himself.  Regardless of Phil's protestations, it's the captains job to tell him that he needs him and Keegan out there again Saturday afternoon.  Resting them obviously didn't help them in singles as they both lost.  It's funny,  when Rory rolled up 10 minutes before his tee time, I was thinking this might be the best thig for him as he doesn't have time to start thinking about the magnitude of the situation.

Ben,

I can't imagine a club having football on in the bar over the Ryder Cup.  Yet another reason I try to stay above the Mason-Dixon line