Long Drives - Is there no ARCHITECTURAL defense

[THuckaby2]

I purposefully brought up Lou as an example, guys.  I hope this doesn't give him anything but GOOD memories if he reads this, as it sure as hell ought to....

And yes Shivas, he went for it because he MUST without a doubt.  Did it change any perception from any of us about his great round?  No way.  We still all say -4 through 14 and leave the rest unsaid, because it doesn't matter.

I dare say though if he had gone left, and finished -2 (figure bogey on 16, pars on 17 and 18), we would have still been celebrating the fantastic round, but only David would have been congratulating him on his smart play on 16.... you and I would have likely been wondering if there are any MEN left in Texas...  

TH

[THuckaby2]

You and I are simpatico on this, shivas.  In fact
I have been discussing this with some other friends
off-line (because David's take is SO damn intriguing
to me) and they said if I ever lay up on that hole
each time they see me forever I'll be greeted with:

"Hi, Pussy."

Living with that... well... David is a better man
than I am!

TH

[THuckaby2]

Correct.  What one also has to remember is that if one has the skill to get to -3, that carry in no wind ought not even to be an issue... sure bad shots happen, but it's not a bad percentage play by any stretch.  The shot to the left fairway, right of the tree, isn't exactly no-brainer easy.... one can easily go too far right or too long and lose the ball, or too far left and get behind the tree, I'd have to guess...

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

If Lou was -3 coming into that hole, and faced a 30mph in his face, I'd call him "Smart".  

Sure, it's a great hole, probably the most beautiful golf related spot on the planet, and exceedingly challenging.

That doesn't mean one should stop playing golf (trying to realistically assess the odds of the reality of each shot you're attempting) and instead play some game of testosterone-driven smashball if one has anything of value on the line, such as the chance to play CP under par for the day.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

There was very little wind the day in question re Lou, as I understand it.

But it remains interesting how people treat golf differently... I for one would MUCH rather be -1 on 16 than -1 for the entire round whilst laying up on that hole, unless it was a gale against me.

This isn't testosterone - you've spent enough time with me to know I am the least "macho" golfer around... This is about immortality.  A birdie on 16 doesn't achieve that, but it would be pretty damn close.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

As you know, the day we played was in some pretty serious wind.  I knew the way I was hitting the ball off the tee (inconsistent) and looked at that shot and thought..."chances...slim...none".  

You hit a superb drive and got to the very front (some say it was the fringe, but I'll give it to you! ).  The others suffered a similar fate to mine.

So, I'm judging it by the day we played.

If Lou's -3 day was in still conditions, and he went left, then perhaps we could call him "Smart Pussy".  

[THuckaby2]

Mike:  the day we played made Mr. Huntley's assessment of it as a "stiff breeze" one of the year's funniest comments.

The caddies were even amazed at how hard it was blowing that day.

That was NOT the case when Lou played the first time, unless the story was severely mangled.  Shivas was there, he can confirm.

But yes, "smart pussy" - well said!

TH

[THuckaby2]

shivas:

Let's not get TOO deep re this.  Relation to par is just an easy way to state how great Lou's round was at a certain point... in the end a score of 68 or whatever would have been what "mattered", not -3 or whatever.

Your other questions are great ones and dammit, I have to run to a meeting so can't get to those!

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

shivas;

Size matters?  

Oh..you're talking clubheads...I see.  

[Dan Kelly]

Tom Huckaby,

To echo your thoughts, the first time I ever stepped to the tee at # 16, the Caddy suggested that I might want to hit a
4-iron, safely to the left.  I responded that I didn't come 3,000 miles to one of the great holes in golf to play safe, and asked for my driver.

Just curious: How'd it turn out?

[DMoriarty]

There is so much testosterone flowing through this thread that I am afraid to let my daughter get near the computer!  

Tom and Mike.  I played with Lou, Shivas, and Rich the day Lou was under par at 16. (I thought he was two under, tripled, then birdied 17.)   When I say it was relatively calm, you should keep in mind that I am from Central Montana, where they hang steel chains from posts instead of flags to measure the wind.  There was a breeze that day, maybe a half club to a club, but abolutely nothing like it was the recent round.  So I am not sure it was an entirely stupid play by Lou on that particular day.   That being said, if he had been in the same position recently in truly high winds, I'd be curious to have seen what he would have done.  

Still, had he hit left, I think "Smart Pussy" would have been much too severe.  At most, I think you could have politely pointed out that you'd always known women were more intelligent than men.  Of course I would never say such a thing, for multiple reasons.

P. Moriarty

[THuckaby2]

That being said, if he had been in the same position recently in truly high winds, I'd be curious to have seen what he would have done.  

Aye, there's the rub.  THAT is the question.  I wonder too what Lou might have done... if ever there was a time to protect a score and go left, that might have been it... Still, with light wind and Lou playing well, I gotta believe it's a shot in his mind that's a 9 out of 10 to stay dry, at least.  I still can't see him going left, even in the wind we had in March.  I played with him that day and the wind caused his ball to hit the beach long and left... the carry over the seawall was not an issue.  Jeez, if high fade wussboy me can make it over in that wind, then boring draw, Texas wind-cheater Lou SURELY can....

So I'd still go with Shivas on my assessment if he did lay up.  I'd just keep it to myself, because a) Lou could kill me if he wanted; and b) he's far too nice a guy to ever give crap too; and c) I am pretty darn positive myself on the golf course!

TH

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Dan Kelly,

I hit a driver on the green, and two putted for par.
The driver never got "up" and bored through the wind pretty well, but, there was still a little doubt as to the outcome, while the ball was in the air.
On the tee you could feel the spray of the ocean hitting the rocks and being whipped up by the wind.

I also had a bet with a friend of mine with respect to my three rounds at Spyglass, Cypress and Pebble so it was a shot that had consequences beyond the moment.  But, If I didn't think I could make it, I wouldn't have tried it.

I was two over at the time.  If I had been three or four under at the time, I'm not so sure that I would have attempted the same shot.  Although the caddy's suggestion fired me up and may have forced me to overcome better judgement.

Later that afternoon, I brought a friend back to the spot to show them the shot I faced and to relive the result.  
To this day, I'm  rather proud of that shot.

[juventusatlanta]

Phil -

I agree that angling fairways from the tee boxes is a good way of making courses more interesting and penal.

Similarly, I've found that angled greens are the most interesting feature to any course, long or short.  When you're hitting into a green where the distance to hit the green is different in the front versus the middle, versus the back, your approach position becomes critical, making your play off the tee also critical.

We need more options to play shots, not fewer, and to me, this means more interesting green designs, not tighter fairways, not more bunkers or higher rough.

[ForkaB]

As one who was there, let me add a little something to the Lou Duran at Cypress legend.

Lou actually hit 3 balls off the tee on 16.  As was said above, he was -3 (after a silly bogey on 15), so this looked like a self-destruction for the ages.  Not wanting to watch (and wondering if I would ever be able to get back up!), I didn't join Lou in climbing down the hill to the little beach long left of the green to search for the drives (#'s 2 and 3) which had gone in that direction.  Lo and behold, however, Lou found drive #2 sitting on the beach and then hit a magnificent recovery shot to 5-10 feet and sunk the putt for a world class 5.  He then proceeded to hit it stiff on 17 (birdie) and then had his 2nd stuck up in a tree to the right of 18, from which he took a penalty drop and got another very interesting 5.  It was something to behold......

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick --

Thanks. Nice shot! I hope, someday, I get to hit one of my patented knockdown-fade drivers at that hole. (Sounds like Gib and I hit the tee ball with the same trajectory.)

At least if I mishit it, I might come up dry!

All --

So, who's the bigger man/lesser wuss?

(a) The guy who'll play the smart shot, knowing all of the crap he'll have to take from his testosterone-soaked brethren (and/or from brethren doing their damnedest to appear testosterone-soaked)?

Or:

(b) The guy so cowed by the imagined taunts of his so-called "buddies" that he'd rather pump several sleeves of Pro V-1 X's into the ocean than make a smart up-and-down par?

A question for the ages!

---------------

To answer the thread's question, in a single word: Temptation.

[THuckaby2]

Aye Dan, THAT is the question.

Just remember, the example here isn't THAT cut and dried... The shot facing David was far from "impossible."  He hits the ball as far or farther than I do when he catches it... and I made the clearing that same day.  Remember also the "safe" shot to the left isn't completely easy, and in no way guarantees anything... it sure as hell doesn't guarantee an up and down par!

In a situation of a total hack with no chance of making the clearing who pumps ball after ball in to avoid taunts, well then that is just idiocy and said hack gets no points for being "manly" here.

That is NOT the case at hand.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Tom IV --

I wasn't talking about this example.

Up higher in this thread, it seems to me, various people were making various blanket statements about NEVER playing safe to "protect a score."

Let me complicate it a bit:

You're on the 16th tee at Cypress Point. You're 1-up in a match that, for one reason or another, matters to you. Your opponent just won the 15th -- and has the honor on the tee. He (or, of course, she) attempts to drive the 16th, into a two-club wind, and falls short, into the Pacific. You have enough length to reach the green with a purely struck shot -- and probably with a very slightly mishit shot. But any real mishit, and you're wet.

What do you do now?

[Mike Benham]

A ficitonal recount of a real-life golfing story ...

Fade in - a semi-musty grill room on a late Saturday afternoon -

Lou (not his real name) to his regular foursome of golfing buddies: "So, after a stupid bogey on 15, I'm 2 under going to 16 at Cypress.  We got a little quartering wind, requiring a 1/2 club more, so I pull out the 6-iron instead of the 7 ..."

Buddy #1 (not his real name): "... wait, do mean you hit 6-iron to 16 at Cypress?"

Lou (not his real name): " yeah, a little 3/4 six with a slight fade back into the wind ... from there I had about 40-yards so I played a bump and run, just like the one I played when I layed up short and right at the Road Hole at St. Andrews ... I missed the 10-footer and took bogey"

Buddy #2 (not his real name): "Huh, you didn't go for the green on your tee shot?"

Lou (not his real name):  "Nah, but I did hit two perfect shots to 17 for a birdie and a great up and down after an unplayable for bogey at 18 ... shot 71, here's tthe scorecard ..."

Fade to black ...

Fade in - the following Saturday, shot of Lou (not his real name) standing on the first tee looking for a new group of guys to play with ....

[THuckaby2]

First, truer words have never been written in this forum than what shivas just wrote.  My gratitude to said "saint" goes to bounds that really can't be quantified.  Muchas gracias, INDEED!

Now to Dan K.:

Way up higher, I too speculated that it would depend on what matters to you in golf.  I just can't imagine a match mattering to me enough NOT to take my shot at immortality, even though in a situation like yours it would be completelyt stupid not to go left, as I also said above.  I know, we can't expect you to wade through all this drivel, but as our lawyers always but in and say when I'm about to reiterate something whilst being deposed,

ASKED AND ANSWERED.

And testosterone and avoiding taunts is only a very small piece of the reasons why, for me anyway.

TH

ps - Mr. Benham's little screenplay sums up PERFECTLY what shivas and I have been trying to describe.

[Dan Kelly]

Fade to black ...

Fade in - the following Saturday, shot of Lou (not his real name) standing on the first tee looking for a new group of guys to play with ....

Meanwhile, after cleaning up their double-bogeys at the first green (having attempted, and failed, to clear the green-fronting creek with 3-woods from the rough), the former so-called "buddies" of Lou (not his real name) look back to the first tee, see the lonely but self-sufficient Lou (not his real name), and say to one another: "Poor devil. Finally learned to play smart. We'd never have seen another penny of HIS dough." <Raucous laughter.>

[THuckaby2]

Well said, DK.    Now I am outta here till Monday.. so if I don't continue this little joust, it's not due to rudeness.

Have a great weekend!

TH

[Dan Kelly]

let's get into the reasons for goign for it even in a howling wind.

It ain't catcalls and inquiries about tampons and Cosmo.

It ain't any other sort of lifetime ribbing.

It ain't score on the hole.

It ain't score for the round.

It is the archetypal quest of man to defeat nature's attempts to stop him from his goal.  THAT is why you do it.  "Because you must."

Well, NOW you're talkin'!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

An update.

I played with him again yesterday.
A vital fact that I forgot to mention is, he's 48 years old, stopped playing golf for 11 years and then started up again
4 years ago.  After we played, some fellows were sitting around, including two pros who played with us, one a former PGA Tour Pro, the other a Pro who's playing in the Senior PGA
Tour Championship at Aronomink, and according to THEM, he's gotten 20+ yards longer with this new combination of equipment in the last month.  And remember, his drives are all carry, with little or no roll, so it's not the condition of the fairways.  He's also very straight.

On # 14, 370, he drove it over the lake 15 yards short of the green.

On # 15, 350, he drove it into the greenside bunker.

Both of these holes parallel each other, going in the opposite direction.

As we were playing I thought, how do you architecturally defend the golf course against this aerial assault off the tee without penalizing the other levels of golfers.

The only thing I could think of were small to medium sized centerline fairway bunkers at the 300-350 mark.

This fellow told me that he played at Pine Tree with Hank Kuehne, and that on the 16th hole, a par 5, from 670, Kuehne hit driver, 4-wood, over the green.

I know what you're going to say, but let me insert one last piece of information.  Another fellow in our group, age 55,
a 10 handicap was hitting it 260+ and on # 17 hit it 300 yards

TE, it's systemic, not isolated, and it is becoming a real problem across the board, at every club.
The architecture is being rendered obsolete.

I listened to these fellows discuss how golf courses are getting their greens to 13+ on the stimp and hiding the pins in every effort to offset the distance revolution, but in doing so, these clubs are advocating goofy golf.

Golf is becoming a power game, and the architecture, like the maginot (sp?) line is being circumvented.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

If you're trying to get me to agree with you that the golf ball is going too far for some in recent years, then I do agree. You should've heard Frank Thomas just recently on the whys and wherefors of that. It's too bad and if a golf course can't add tee length for those people (or do something else creative such as drop the par for them on certain holes, without doing anything to those holes such as a few of the par 5s at NGLA with an alternate scorecard) then the course has a certain problem for sure.

Rich:

I agree, wonderful story about Lou Duran at CPC. I'd say the guy is an unusual course manager and one who falls completely into the all important architectural dictate of the importance of "temptation" in architecture best evidenced by Oscar Wilde's remark;

"I can avoid anything except temptation."

I think this quote also perfectly exemplifies Shivas's approach to golf and architecture too.